ONE question to all the atheists out there....

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Well, to retort (and I thank you for the thoughts): 1. I am, as I mentioned earlier, a believer the universe is infinite. The "nothing can create itself" notion does not hold water. If the universe can't create itself, neither can God. If God can be infinite, so can the universe. I think extrapolating the question of "what put me here" to God is a natural personification tendancy that we find evidence of in all human thought. 2. As for the perfection of nature, I point out again that in my view an infinite universe over an infinite period of time will produce every possible thing and combination of things imaginable. Simple definition of infinity. 3. We feel "god's" presence because we are self-conscious. The notion of self-realization and need for a belief in something more and eternal, in my view, result from the same chemical combinations and neural sysnapses that make us fear death - which is an immediate side-effect of sentience. I simply feel that virtue lies not in accepting the fiction of God, but rather in having the strength of character to realize you will be dirt and still carry on. We simply differ here. I, of course, respect your right to your opinion, and I am glad that there are many religious folk on the planet. But, it's not for me. I love to study religion, especially as it is always a window into history, and I have personally explored many spiritual paths. But, in the end, I think that true spirituality comes with accepting the humbling notion that though our brains are bigger we are no different or more special than any other organism on the planet.

LOL it's so funny how we think the exact opposite.

1. My whole point was that nothing can create itself therefore you need someONE eternal to create it. This one being does not need anything to create it as it always was and will be (beyond our comprehension). This doesn't do anything for you so I'll quit wasting my typing

2. Mathematicly that's correct but the Big Bang supposedly happened not that long ago relative to "infinite" time. If you still believe (which IMO requires much more faith than believing in a God) that the universe created itself or was always there then we'll leave it at that.

3. Maybe but I still think sentience is special. It is far more than the instinct and possible imitating capabilities of some animals. I still don't think this feeling would just arise in so many people for no reason.

Last paragraph we disagree the most. I think it's taking the easy option out saying we're just dirt and have no duty or significance to anything greater than ourselves. It's much easier to live how you want than how you would have to live if you believe a religion and want to live by it. It's so much easier just to say you don't care about anything outside your life and the physical domain.

[ 01-22-2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[purre]

I dont believe in god,I have no reason to believe in it.

Maybe there is nothing to gain and lots to loose,so what,I wont be knowing that when I'm dead,right.Dunno.And dont really want to bother my head with it,there are more important things to me in my life than believing in something like 'god'.

*goes to see what opinions others have*

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Hmm, I find mysle find myself in agreement with TL here... I've often wondered how so many people will say that the universe is infinite in size, yet seem unable to comprehend that the universe might not be finite in time.
Just because we h cannot comprehend this does not mean that it must be some force personified that spawned existence as we know it.

I was going to mention about Pascal but looks like someone had already said this.. as to your original question-
Because I can't will myself to abandon all I have come to conclude myself- maybe if I only listened to views from others it would be possible- but I have come to my own conclusions and views on these matters.

[Djinn Raffo]

I havent read the whole thread.. long i apologize..

but shouldnt the original question be asked not of athiests but of agnostics?

Athiests are usually just as adamantly firm in their un-belief.. as God worshippers are in their belief.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Vaskez: 1. My whole point was that nothing can create itself therefore you need someONE eternal to create it. This one being does not need anything to create it as it always was and will be (beyond our comprehension). This doesn't do anything for you so I'll quit wasting my typing

Why do you need someONE? On a tangent, why not someTWO? [img]tongue.gif[/img] But to the main point why do you assume it must be a "one?"
Also, saying that nothing can create it self, why can't the something always be and always have been etc.? You say the someONE is beyond our comprehension- why can't the something be beyond our comprehension, and able to create things?0

3. Maybe but I still think sentience is special. It is far more than the instinct and possible imitating capabilities of some animals. I still don't think this feeling would just arise in so many people for no reason.

Errmm, if we are using the same definition- animals are sentient-.
I'd quote a dictionary but that would involve opening programs and other such strenuous activity on my part.

Last paragraph we disagree the most. I think it's taking the easy option out saying we're just dirt and have no duty or significance to anything greater than ourselves. It's much easier to live how you want than how you would have to live if you believe a religion and want to live by it. It's so much easier just to say you don't care about anything outside your life and the physical domain.

So... people should change their ideology to make life harder for themselves?
Woe betide those who let themselves not care about things they can't bring themself to believe in.

[pritchke]

I believe that eveyone is wrong in their beliefs, but yet all are somewhat correct. I believe there is something and no matter what we believe in the end we are all going to feel like fools, because none of us was absolutly correct. Atheists included of course. So just pick something you feel comfortable with and go with it as long as it doesn't involve hurting other people.

We should also stop trying to convince everyone that they are wrong and we are right. [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]

Why can't we all just get along?

[Mouse]

Just a small reminder. This can be a touchy subject, but if everyone remembers to debate the points not the person then it should continue just fine.

No more overt (or covert) personal insults OK.

[Timber Loftis]

[quote]Originally posted by Vaskez:

I think it's taking the easy option out saying we're just dirt and have no duty or significance to anything greater than ourselves. It's much easier to live how you want than how you would have to live if you believe a religion and want to live by it. It's so much easier just to say you don't care about anything outside your life and the physical domain.

The only part of your post I take (small) offense to is this bit, Vaskez. Why assume I have no moral duties. Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms, and the Gospels may be your textual advisors, but Plato, Hegel, St. Thomas Aquinas (yes, a holy man, no less), Nietszche, and many others, including Jesus, Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms, etc. are mine. I live by rules. I spend more time thinking about living the "good life" and getting it right than most people (present company excepted of course).

Just because you have tied your morals to a promise of an afterlife does not mean they are any stronger than mine. On the flip side, I *could* argue I am more noble than you because I need no "carrot" or "stick" to make me be a good person. I simply do what is right because it is right.

I don't think the bible is wrong, per se (though it is often contradictory, but so is the whole of human existence). I just don't think God exists. I think the ancient Jahweh mountain god tribe that became the Hebrews has a lot of good social theory, and actually did a wonderful job putting it into action. And, it was modernized with the Jesus cult that grew into Christianity. But, these things hold no more truth for me than the Tao, which I see as completely compatible.

Sorry, I'm rambling now. But, it is wrong, and mean, of you to think that because someone does not ascribe to a God or an afterlife that they have not moral code.

[ 01-22-2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Vaskez]

OK guys I'm out. Obviously the point of a debate is to discuss ideas and give your views and not to try and change other people's views. However I think everyone debates better and for longer if they see that their arguments are good enough to at least have SOME effect on the opposing view. Anyway I see mine are having no effect on anyone whatsoever so I see no point in continuing. I'll leave you to it.

Also it's quite depressing how everyone interprets my arguments as a direct attack to themselves and how they find things insulting all the time. I think this'll be the last time I debate anything on Ironworks for a long time at least.

Just one more thing to TL: I have NOT chosen Genesis, Leviticus etc. for anything. As I've stated at least twice this thread was not intended to promote Christianity etc. I am not a complete believer in the Bible myself as I have yet to work through all the evidence against it. This thread was about existance of a God which IMO is a slightly seperate issue.

[ 01-22-2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[LordKathen]

Wow. This is why I am a freethinker.I am called an athiest becouse I dont follow a thiest belief or idea. I dont prescribed to god or any other diety. I dont allow my feelings of fear, hatred, love, anxiety, happieness, saddnes, etc. to control my thoughts. Niether do I allow societal needs, like structure, kindness, brotherhood, etc., to control me. We are social animals that evolved in intelegance and needed a way to make sure we had structure, kindness, brotherhood, etc. As a society in whole, I think religion was a good way to control this. It also answered alot of fearfull questions we had about the universe before we had science to explain things in a logical manner. Well, as the first humans were freaking out over a shooting star, so came religion. "Bow down to the light in the sky, for it is all powerfull", I can imagine them saying. People who believe in god and live by faith have my respect. They are usually good, honest, hard working people. A lot of times they are intellects, Yorich for example. There is nothing wrong with this either. I just dont need faith to guild me. To answer the origanal question, someone on here said that it should be tergeted towards agonstics instead of athiests. This is true. I would have something to loose if I chose to follow god. He has to many rules.

Bygons to all here. I have not or will not question any ones faith in god or your belief. The debate with Yorich in the now famous "snowflake thread" was started by me. I felt he was out of line with his comments. He then went on to question my beleaf and what it would take to see the light. This is where I stop. I will not adhere to conversation that ways towards convertion or convincing. He may not intend this, but in my experiance with christians, this is the case in the end.
We have settled I think and I at least have adjurned.