Most powerful party/proficiencies?

[Aerich]

True, but read on...

As I understood Roboghost's post, he was intending the PP progression to be **crossbow and **axe to start, followed by **mace, then adding the final 3 stars to axe, then 3 more to mace. This strategy gives you 5 PP in axe at lvl 15, along with early specialization in crossbow (ranged fire) and mace (for skeletons).

I suggested **axe, *crossbow, *mace to start, followed by another * in mace at lvl 3, then the next 3 stars in axe, getting to 5 PP at lvl 12. My reasoning for this progression is as follows, with #3-5 being the most important:

1) ** in crossbow doesn't add much over just * - additional chance to hit isn't really necessary if he is not doing HoF with a rookie party, as the +2 for 18 Dex and the Thaco of a single-classed warrior will provide enough bonus.
2) There aren't many good crossbows in the game, and certainly not early in the game (I define a "good" crossbow as one capable of more than one shot/round).
3) A pure fighter will be either the #1 or #2 melee option and so won't spend much time shooting a crossbow anyway.
4) With 18/00 Str, a pure fighter will do loads more damage in melee compared to ranged fire with a crossbow (no Str bonus to attack or damage).
5) An axe specialist is only going to use a crossbow a) before getting the returning axe from DE lvl 4 or b) after getting a multiple att/round crossbow and some magical bolts, which will be in the mid-to-lategame stages of IWD before the expansions.

[ 11-15-2005, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

My Bard normally has the following statistics, usually a female Human,

STR: 15, Not just for Composite Longbows, but to help carry stuff as well.
DEX: 18
CON: 16
INT: 18
WIS: 10
CHA: 18

[ister]

Originally posted by Aerich: Wow, lots of posts since friday. @ ister - I didn't actually do the math, so you may well be right. Note that a F/M/T should take 17 Con instead of 18 because the extra point is a waste with the rounding down, so the T/M has a net gain of 1 stat point to go elsewhere. Anyway, the HP argument is probably irrelevant - any combination of thief and mage won't have many HP, and arguing about it is like two dwarves arguing about how tall they are. The advantage to a F/M/T is better Thaco and more attacks/round - best used from a distance, of course.

I agree. I was just pointing out that hp is a rotten reason to choose F/M/T over T-M. Other reasons are good, but the dual will have more hit points almost all of the time.

Fighter - awesome. I got a natural 18/00 roll once (on a gnome fighter also), and chopped the enemy into little bits. Did about 50% of the party's kills. You could choose to take 1 PP in crossbow to start, allowing you to get to 5 PP in axe sooner. I'm fairly sure that you don't get extra attacks for specialization in crossbow, so there's really no need to specialize early unless you are doing HoF from the start and need all the early ranged advantages you can scrounge.

I'm fairly sure that you do get the extra (1/2) attack from specializing in crossbow. I know for a fact that you do in BG, but I've only used a crossbow once in IWD. Despite that I would agree that an axe weilder shouldn't be using a crossbow too often, and should try to get to GM as soon as possible. It is so powerful that to postponing it for 3 levels requires something excellent in return. I can't see crossbow specialization as being so great.

[Roboghost]

Preface: I'm a random item nut...after a big fight...I want what I want {pounds feet on ground}.

Okay...
Bard roll update [97 -- same as Paladin!]:
14 18 16 18 13 18

STR 14 & 15: = 120 lbs carry capacity
I'd rather have my Bard equip a Buckler -- so no bow for me. Sling will have to do [as a last resort].) BIG NOTE: you only need STR 12 to use a long bow, but STR 15 for a composite bow!!

WIS 13: for a certain instrument down road.

CHA 18: I like one character to pump up the CHA if possible: 18 + 5 (spell) = 23 and then +1 (laurel) for a 24 for going shopping. I think you can get it to 25 a ways down the road (weapon?). Buying up good ammo is the best way to take advantage of high charisma...fur shur.

Paladin mace instead of flail [at first]:
You can buy a fairly cheap +3 mace at start of game to help pound skeletons. I'll build the flail** at level 9 & 12. But you can get a +4 random mace before HoW that is very nice for a Paladin -- hint: it "defends". Note that the Shocking Flail +4 vanishes with HoW installed. Finally, another throwing axe will come along, so build axe** at levels 15 & 18.

Fighter mace v. hammer (1) & crossbow notes (2):
1. First comes the +3 mace then later comes another VERY powerful +3 mace in HoW. A fighter can make good use of this -- mine won't be ***** until level 24, but that keeps things interesting ["fairish"] throughout game. Maces are slower, but they hurt! Spell disruption can come from the back rows.

2. Crossbow**: specialized give +1 Hit & +2 Damage & bolts are 1d8 v. arrows 1d6. Admittedly the ROF sucks with crossbows until later when you get a chance at some crossbows that add +2 or +3 to ROF. I prefer the light crossbow for speed. My fighter will go crossbow*** at level 27 and will be a nice complement to the throwing axe. Save up a pack of deadly bolts and a +3 crossbow and use on the toughest nasties {keeping them busy with summons at the same time} then go to "guns" when the worst are laid to rest & finish up the job.

Thief/Cleric v. Fighter/Druid club issue:
Yea; it would be logical to let the fighter/druid horde the best club since it is their only shielded thumping weapon, but the club is also the only crush weapon that can take advantage of the thief attacks. Kind of a quandary here! There are two other powerful clubs besides the +5, but they come late in the castle and HoW. I'll probably just let the cleric keep the +5 and the F/D will have to fend for himself -- although...the F/D can use that +5 spear, but will have to go without a shield to use it.

Also on the Thief/Cleric:
Pick any thief weapon -- it won't matter, because you'll be able to get your cleric weapons up and running in no time anyway. By the time my Thief/Cleric hits 17/18...I'll have most except maybe one (probably the staff -- I wish the game came with a couple of +4 or +5 staves [come to think of it].)


Spoiler stuff down yonder...
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Some final words: on strength (in order of achieving):
Fighter - STR 19 (random ring)
Paladin - STR 19 (belt)
Fighter/Mage - STR 18/51 (gauntlet)
Thief/Cleric - STR 18/00 (gauntlet) - cleric armor overrides thief armor as far as what you can wear, but thief abilities may be disabled with cleric armor
Fighter/Druid - STR 18/00 (gauntlet)
Bard...will stay a weenie (as they should.) Use this gal to keep Paladin and F/D strength up with a spell until each can achieve their strength goals.

A good example of my planning ahead on my ranged weapons:
Paladin will end w/ throwing axe** w/ 19 STR and bow**
Fighter will end w/ throwing axe***** w/ 19 STR and crossbow***
F/D will end w/ missile** w/ 18/00 STR w/ +4/+4 sling
T/C will end w/ missile* w/ 18/00 STR w/ +3/+5 sling
F/M will end w/ throwing dagger***** w/ 18/51 STR and bow***
Bard will end w/ missile* & crossbow* & bow* or...run the other way [boots of speed, anyone?]
All can do range with a shield and 4 of the 6 can remove the shield and load up with evil ammo and cause even more terrible damage at range to the creeps hunting you down [2 bow and 2 crossbow]! The throwing dagger will come late, but I'll be ready for my prize when I get it (with one big "whoopee").

Ultimately: It is kind of cool to have a party that has some weaknesses. It gives you a chance to actually plan some strategy instead of solving all problems by pressing the "button". My party here will eventually scare most gods into a corner, but I will have to think my way though the game a bit until then ; )

[ 11-15-2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Roboghost ]

[Kyrvias]

Just to clear some things up, the Gauntlets of Elven Might can only be used by Multi Classed fighters, if I recall correctly.

[Roboghost]

Gauntlets of Elven Might:
A DC F/M can wear them, but only after the "Fighter" kicks back in in a dual-class situation.

[Aerich]

On the mace vs. flail debate in the early game, I've never bought a magical weapon at Conlan's for use in the Vale. A non-magical flail is sufficient to clear the Vale, because you also find a +1 sword to use against weapon-immune undead.

My first magical purchase is spells, and my first magical item purchase (with a bard in the party, of course) is the Horn of Valhalla. Second is often the Helm of the Defender. Third is the blur belt. Fourth is Pemby's Wand of Many Missiles. If I have tons of money before I finish DE, I also like to grab the Wand of Freezing Death. I prefer to buy my early items from Orrick, because his inventory changes and you lose the opportunity to buy his stuff every time you go to a new chapter.

[ 11-16-2005, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[Kyrvias]

Gauntlets of Elven Might: A DC F/M can wear them, but only after the "Fighter" kicks back in in a dual-class situation

I see. I stand corrected than.