Our beliefs construct our world - true or false?

Silver Cheetah · 10-04-2001, 12:08 PM

How do our beliefs affect the way we see and live in the world? I think they are fundamental. Unfortunately, very often we are not even aware that our beliefs ARE beliefs, - we think that they are truth.

What do you think?

I'm not talking exclusively religious beliefs here, though I'm up for discussion on them too - certainly they are as relevant as any other form of belief!!

------------------

Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

DragonMage · 10-04-2001, 12:25 PM

I agree. I definitely feel that our beliefs dictate how we view the world around us.

What we believe to be true dictates how we interact with others and they with us. In turn, that interaction may influence those who we have affected and so on. Not only do our beliefs determine OUR view. Our beliefs can affect OTHERS views as well.

For instance, if I believe that violence in any form is wrong, then I see this world (as it is right now) as a scary place. I might want to become a recluse so I can pretend violence doesn't exist or I might want to publicly advocate against violence, but I will see it as a violent world.

If I believe violence is acceptable up to a point, the I may not view the world as voilent per-se. I might view it as a self-preservation effort or from a survival-of-the-fittest POV.

Great topic!

------------------

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Co-Owner/Operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever!
Mage extraordinair, Pin-Up Girl for the OLD-COOTS
Magey-Wagey: performer in the Nekked Dancing Trio of the ORT.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

Kaz · 10-04-2001, 12:28 PM

I think that our beliefs affect what we see, how we live and what we feel tremendously. Any kind of belief skews facts, and everyone believes in something. Everybody has little prejudices etc. even without being aware of them. Two different people will see the same situation very differently because of their beliefs. It is what we believe in that makes up a great part of what we are, and it is what we are that defines how we react to circumstances, how we live, what we think. Our beliefs are very complex and interwoven, yet without belief we would be nothing.
Just MHO.

------------------

Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB
Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe
Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG)
Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati
Lux omnis est

Sazerac · 10-04-2001, 12:59 PM

I believe very strongly that our perceptions of what is reality helps create our own realities. Example: if a person believes that he/she is worthless, that person will be less prone to take care of him/herself, make friends, or be productive...and others will tend to see him or her as worthless as well. It's the "self-fulfilling prophecy." On the other hand, a person in bad circumstances who believes him/herself to be a "winner" is a lot more prone to being able to return to a "winning" position rather than succumbing to despair and giving up.

The trouble is that very few people can truly engender a true thought about themselves, or anything else, since most of what passes as "thought" is little more than expressing opinions about their emotions.

It's hard to affect one's own reality by these "thoughts" if they're no more than already preconceived opinions, so it becomes a vicious cycle, their reality ever perpetuated by faulty opinions that are then reinforced by their perception of their environment.

So, yes, we shape our reality by our beliefs every day. The number of people who do this to their benefit, though, is sadly low.

------------------

10-04-2001, 01:19 PM

I agree otally

------------------

<font color=cyan>HADB Clan Rulz

Lemernis · 10-04-2001, 01:32 PM

There is no doubt that this is true. But I would caution that this not be extrapolated into a view that it is a futile enterprise to discern objective reality and universally operating laws and principles that bind all of this relativity together. A kind of super-relativivism emerged in the 60's that basically posited that just about any point of view whatsoever is every bit as valid as any other. Near as I can tell, that implies either that 1) nearly all of subjective experience is socially constructed--i.e., contrived, and/or 2) because of the structural limitations imposed by our various repsective relative viewpoints, none of us will ever truly be able to grasp the objective view well enough to matter much.

I disagree with that notion. I hold with Plato and the pre-Socratics that there are indeed absolutes, i.e., Pure Forms or Pure Ideas. There is a comprehensive objective reality that all of the relative subjective viewpoints in existence ultimately square up to in varying measures. Not all subjective viewpoints have the same degree of objective validity, at least with respect to whatever they may perceive and hold to be true about the nature of the shared, outer world.

I personally believe that there are absolutes, i.e., binding laws and principles that govern existence that are within the power of our human minds to apprehend 'well enough'--however hazy and distorted our comprehension may be, we can at least make something out.

Consider all that universally goes into making up every human being, from the quantum level of physics to the highly personal, idiosyncratic thought that just flitted through your head, you have vastly more in common with all other human beings than things that differentiate you. We share in common the lawful orgainization of the physics and chemistry that make all of the 'hardware' work, i.e., your body existing in time and space. And we share the lawful organization of our human 'software', i.e., your mental life, i.e., how the brain works to produce consciousness, the various mechanics of human intelligence, thought, and psychology, etc. Your individual subjective 'world design' that differentiates you from all other individuals is in fact a tiny sliver of the totality of mechanics and processes that you share with all other people.

Now you could argue that those processes are not 'you', i.e., that what is 'you' is precisely that sliver of individual subjectivity--your self--which defines a 'you'. And that is most definitely the case. That is indeed how we know and appreciate each other--by what makes each of us unique. The self is our uniqueness. But I still think to say that it is hopeless to ever discern what each of us shares in common, universally, denies the bigger picture, the greater reality. You are also made up of the things that are universal. IMHO.

[This message has been edited by Lemernis (edited 10-04-2001).]

Ace Flashheart · 10-04-2001, 01:48 PM

"Spend to much time looking up and you'll trip on rocks"... handy advice to aviod falls or complex metaphore to illistrate that it is pointless to always look at the bigger picture...

Some times it's just best to try not to draw conclusions about the big things... makes life easier

Fljotsdale · 10-04-2001, 01:52 PM

Its the difference between picking up an insect from a pavement (sidewalk) and putting it somewhere safe/ignoring it/treading on it.

That may not sound relevant, but it is, imho, because what a person does about the insect is very revealing of their beliefs and world view. IMHO, naturally.

------------------

Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Moridin · 10-04-2001, 02:33 PM

Great topic Silver Cheetah!

Like everyone else has stated, our beliefs do shape our world and how we perceive reality. What appears in one form to one person may have a totally different form to another.

However, our world also goes a long way to shape and/or change our beliefs. A person may have the belief of say, non-violence...but that belief may change if perhaps they are violently attacked, or a loved one is hurt or killed (only an example).

Our beliefs shape our world, but at the same time the world shapes our beliefs

------------------

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Mitro Jellywadder · 10-04-2001, 03:32 PM

I'd have to say that our beliefs do shape our world. A prime
example is look at our children, what we think and believe is
instilled into them from birth. Therefore, our beliefs not only
shape our world, but they have a profound effect on the ones that
we bring into it as well.
We might not always be right in what we believe, or why we
believe them, but there is no way to change the fact that we do.
All things rely on our beliefs, and our perception of the world
around us. If we all sat in the same room and watched the same
event happening, there would be twenty-thousand different stories on what happened. Just because some of us refuse to believe something different that what we know is "right".

(Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see.)

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10-04-2001, 12:08 PM	#1
Silver Cheetah Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK Posts: 1,781	How do our beliefs affect the way we see and live in the world? I think they are fundamental. Unfortunately, very often we are not even aware that our beliefs ARE beliefs, - we think that they are truth. What do you think? I'm not talking exclusively religious beliefs here, though I'm up for discussion on them too - certainly they are as relevant as any other form of belief!! ------------------ Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

10-04-2001, 12:25 PM	#2
DragonMage 20th Level Warrior Join Date: September 6, 2001 Location: The lighter side of life, a.k.a. Newnan, Georgia Age: 55 Posts: 2,767	I agree. I definitely feel that our beliefs dictate how we view the world around us. What we believe to be true dictates how we interact with others and they with us. In turn, that interaction may influence those who we have affected and so on. Not only do our beliefs determine OUR view. Our beliefs can affect OTHERS views as well. For instance, if I believe that violence in any form is wrong, then I see this world (as it is right now) as a scary place. I might want to become a recluse so I can pretend violence doesn't exist or I might want to publicly advocate against violence, but I will see it as a violent world. If I believe violence is acceptable up to a point, the I may not view the world as voilent per-se. I might view it as a self-preservation effort or from a survival-of-the-fittest POV. Great topic! ------------------ The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c) Co-Owner/Operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan. Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever! Mage extraordinair, Pin-Up Girl for the OLD-COOTS Magey-Wagey: performer in the Nekked Dancing Trio of the ORT. Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy Hopeless Romantic sigh

10-04-2001, 12:28 PM	#3
Kaz Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: August 16, 2001 Location: UK Posts: 2,891	I think that our beliefs affect what we see, how we live and what we feel tremendously. Any kind of belief skews facts, and everyone believes in something. Everybody has little prejudices etc. even without being aware of them. Two different people will see the same situation very differently because of their beliefs. It is what we believe in that makes up a great part of what we are, and it is what we are that defines how we react to circumstances, how we live, what we think. Our beliefs are very complex and interwoven, yet without belief we would be nothing. Just MHO. ------------------ Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati Lux omnis est

10-04-2001, 12:59 PM	#4
Sazerac Ironworks Moderator Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Monroe, LA Age: 60 Posts: 7,387	I believe very strongly that our perceptions of what is reality helps create our own realities. Example: if a person believes that he/she is worthless, that person will be less prone to take care of him/herself, make friends, or be productive...and others will tend to see him or her as worthless as well. It's the "self-fulfilling prophecy." On the other hand, a person in bad circumstances who believes him/herself to be a "winner" is a lot more prone to being able to return to a "winning" position rather than succumbing to despair and giving up. The trouble is that very few people can truly engender a true thought about themselves, or anything else, since most of what passes as "thought" is little more than expressing opinions about their emotions. It's hard to affect one's own reality by these "thoughts" if they're no more than already preconceived opinions, so it becomes a vicious cycle, their reality ever perpetuated by faulty opinions that are then reinforced by their perception of their environment. So, yes, we shape our reality by our beliefs every day. The number of people who do this to their benefit, though, is sadly low. ------------------

10-04-2001, 01:19 PM	#5
www.cffl.com Guest Posts: n/a	I agree otally ------------------ <font color=cyan>HADB Clan Rulz

10-04-2001, 01:32 PM	#6
Lemernis Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 611	There is no doubt that this is true. But I would caution that this not be extrapolated into a view that it is a futile enterprise to discern objective reality and universally operating laws and principles that bind all of this relativity together. A kind of super-relativivism emerged in the 60's that basically posited that just about any point of view whatsoever is every bit as valid as any other. Near as I can tell, that implies either that 1) nearly all of subjective experience is socially constructed--i.e., contrived, and/or 2) because of the structural limitations imposed by our various repsective relative viewpoints, none of us will ever truly be able to grasp the objective view well enough to matter much. I disagree with that notion. I hold with Plato and the pre-Socratics that there are indeed absolutes, i.e., Pure Forms or Pure Ideas. There is a comprehensive objective reality that all of the relative subjective viewpoints in existence ultimately square up to in varying measures. Not all subjective viewpoints have the same degree of objective validity, at least with respect to whatever they may perceive and hold to be true about the nature of the shared, outer world. I personally believe that there are absolutes, i.e., binding laws and principles that govern existence that are within the power of our human minds to apprehend 'well enough'--however hazy and distorted our comprehension may be, we can at least make something out. Consider all that universally goes into making up every human being, from the quantum level of physics to the highly personal, idiosyncratic thought that just flitted through your head, you have vastly more in common with all other human beings than things that differentiate you. We share in common the lawful orgainization of the physics and chemistry that make all of the 'hardware' work, i.e., your body existing in time and space. And we share the lawful organization of our human 'software', i.e., your mental life, i.e., how the brain works to produce consciousness, the various mechanics of human intelligence, thought, and psychology, etc. Your individual subjective 'world design' that differentiates you from all other individuals is in fact a tiny sliver of the totality of mechanics and processes that you share with all other people. Now you could argue that those processes are not 'you', i.e., that what is 'you' is precisely that sliver of individual subjectivity--your self--which defines a 'you'. And that is most definitely the case. That is indeed how we know and appreciate each other--by what makes each of us unique. The self is our uniqueness. But I still think to say that it is hopeless to ever discern what each of us shares in common, universally, denies the bigger picture, the greater reality. You are also made up of the things that are universal. IMHO. [This message has been edited by Lemernis (edited 10-04-2001).]

10-04-2001, 01:48 PM	#7
Ace Flashheart Manshoon Join Date: July 13, 2001 Location: Manchester, England Posts: 215	"Spend to much time looking up and you'll trip on rocks"... handy advice to aviod falls or complex metaphore to illistrate that it is pointless to always look at the bigger picture... Some times it's just best to try not to draw conclusions about the big things... makes life easier

10-04-2001, 01:52 PM	#8
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	Its the difference between picking up an insect from a pavement (sidewalk) and putting it somewhere safe/ignoring it/treading on it. That may not sound relevant, but it is, imho, because what a person does about the insect is very revealing of their beliefs and world view. IMHO, naturally. ------------------ Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

10-04-2001, 02:33 PM	#9
Moridin Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 1,735	Great topic Silver Cheetah! Like everyone else has stated, our beliefs do shape our world and how we perceive reality. What appears in one form to one person may have a totally different form to another. However, our world also goes a long way to shape and/or change our beliefs. A person may have the belief of say, non-violence...but that belief may change if perhaps they are violently attacked, or a loved one is hurt or killed (only an example). Our beliefs shape our world, but at the same time the world shapes our beliefs ------------------ Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

10-04-2001, 03:32 PM	#10
Mitro Jellywadder Quintesson Join Date: September 5, 2001 Location: Florida Age: 52 Posts: 1,016	I'd have to say that our beliefs do shape our world. A prime example is look at our children, what we think and believe is instilled into them from birth. Therefore, our beliefs not only shape our world, but they have a profound effect on the ones that we bring into it as well. We might not always be right in what we believe, or why we believe them, but there is no way to change the fact that we do. All things rely on our beliefs, and our perception of the world around us. If we all sat in the same room and watched the same event happening, there would be twenty-thousand different stories on what happened. Just because some of us refuse to believe something different that what we know is "right". (Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see.)

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