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Old 11-02-2004, 10:08 PM   #1
T-D-C
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Join Date: October 26, 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Hey Everyone,

Just thought we may want to use this area to post up some Character builds. They can be level 20/level 40 builds anything.

If you think you have a good build please post it here.

Cheers
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:01 AM   #2
shamrock_uk
Dracolich
 

Join Date: January 24, 2004
Location: UK
Age: 40
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Well, all mine are Undermoutain characters but here goes:

This is Pa-Kur my shifter-extraordinaire.

Starting stats: 10, 10, 11, 18, 13, 10

A couple of these might be in the wrong order, but my scrawls are hard to decipher Square brackets are feats you select, squiggly brackets are feats you get automatically.

01. Druid [Power Attack, Cleave]
02. Druid
03. Druid [Improved Unarmed Strike]
04. Druid Wis+1
05. Druid
06. Shifter [Toughness] {Great Wildshape 1}
07. Shifter
08. Shifter Wis +1 {Great Wildshape 2}
09. Shifter [Weapon Focus:Unarmed Strike] {Infinite Greater Wildshape 1}
10. Shifter {Greater Whildshape 3}
11. Shifter
12. Shifter Wis +1 [Improved Crit: Unarmed Stk] {Humanoid shape, Inf. Grt wildshape 2}
13. Shifter
14. Shifter
15. Shifter [knockdown] {Grt W'shape 4, Inf Grt W'shape 3}
16. Fighter Wis +1 [Weapon Prof: Exotic] {Armour:heavy, Weapon prof:simple, martial}
17. Fighter [Weapon Focus:Scythe]
18. Fighter [Improved Crit:Scythe]
19. Fighter [Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike]
20. Fighter Wis +1
21. Shifter [Undead Shape] {Epic Shifter}
22. Fighter [Weapon Specialization: Scythe]
23. Fighter
24. Figher Wis +1 [Great Wisdom 1] [Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe]
25. Fighter
26. Fighter. [Epic Thoughness 1]
27. Fighter [Great Wisdom 2]
28. Fighter Wis +1 [Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike]
29. Fighter
30. Fighter [Great Wisdom 3] [Epic Weapon Specialization: Scythe]
31. Fighter
32. Fighter [Epic Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike]
33. Shifter [Outsider Shape]
34. Shifter [Construct Shape] {Infinite Humanoid Shape}
35. Fighter
36. Shifter Wis +1 [Dragon Shape]
37. Fighter [Epic Toughness 2]
38. Fighter
39. Fighter [Epic Toughness 3] [Epic Toughness 4]
40. Fighter Con +1 {Epic Fighter}

You can't stack ability points for an online character, but be sensible anyway. I settled into a Discipline 1, Move Silently 1, Parry 1 routine for my fighter levels. Maxed out hide with my three later Shifter levels. For my druid levels I was adding tumble and hide, for my first 10 shifter levels I was doing hide 1, tumble 1, move silently 1 with the occasional spot in there too.

I ended up mis-calculating slightly and dropping a couple of Epic Toughness feats for something else that I'd missed - these aren't essential. Follow the starting wisdom and wisdom additions to the letter, and add Great Wisdom exactly when I say though - this is the most cost effective way to get Dragon Shape without sacrificing lots of other feats. If you decide to take them at a different time, you may well find them unselectable at that level.

Anything else is fairly flexible and can be changed with little trouble. The Scythe proficiencies are needed for the Risen Lord who will be your primary melee character after level 21. All the Unarmed Strike ones are there because 2/3 of your shapes are unarmed, and of course so is the newly un-crippled dragon.

[ 11-04-2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:16 PM   #3
T-D-C
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I thought that the weapon focus unarmed didn't work with dragon claws and other shifter unarmed shapes?
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:29 PM   #4
shamrock_uk
Dracolich
 

Join Date: January 24, 2004
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 3,092
Hmm...well I *hope* you're wrong!

The Dragon Kin on the NwN epic builds takes Improved Crit: Unarmed Strike, so I just assumed they all applied.

EDIT: Well, damn. You are right according to this post in the NwN forums. That's a helluva lot of wasted feats I took! Grrrrrr! I did a ton of research on that build, and never came across that written anywhere. Nightmare!

Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike *does* still work apparently though. Normal Weapon Focus doesn't.

Ah well, I'll leave the build up in the hope of encouraging others.

[ 11-04-2004, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:48 PM   #5
T-D-C
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Thats the bad thig about some shifter builds is that some of the feats don't shift. The Scythe is still good for your Undead Lord though.
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Old 11-13-2004, 11:32 PM   #6
ScottG
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 13, 2003
Location: Never Never Land
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Posts: 267
40th level character only.

This is the strongest character I’ve been able to make, and I’ve tried just about everything including specialized shifter builds. The only caveat is that it is NOT the strongest with regard to wild or null magic zones. The only character/creature that could be problematic for this character is a high level monk with absurd spell resistance AND the ability to see through this character’s magical concealment and stealth concealment. Even against this type of character in a “normal zone” my money would still be on this character if used properly.

Note: this character will “experience” heavy experience point penalties nearing the end of its creation – this only means though that it will take a little longer to develop.

Race: Halfling
Alignment: preferably any Good (see “Final Character Comments..” #6 below)
Starting Attributes:
Str. 6
Dex. 14
Con. 14
Int. 16
Wiz. 15
Char.10
Class: Cleric/Wizard/Shifter
Class combination Reasons:

This gives a wide variety of spells for just about any occasion. Both defensive and offensive spell capability is at the extreme. Summoning is also the very best absent epic summons. Transmutation will also be at the highest level for physical combat WITH various defensive spells in place. Spell resistance will be second only to a high level cleric/druid or monk (with the 5th level Cleric spell - Spell Resistance). Spell absorption can equal that of any character (with the various spell mantels). Innate stealth will allow this character great defensive ability in any situation. High base intelligence provides greater quantities of skill points for various skills.

Development:

Skill point allocation: except for 40th level, always place the maximum of points in Concentration. Also, always place the maximum of points in Spellcraft UNTIL you achieve 34 points (then stop). During your Cleric levels place the maximum of skill points in Persuade until you achieve 20 points (then stop). Keep placing points into Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble until you achieve 10,8, and 5 points (respectively).

1st: Cleric; Animal and Plant Domains, Dodge Feat
2nd Wizard; Specialization Necromancy, Pixie Familiar
3rd Cleric; Mobility Feat
4th Wizard; +1 Int.
5th Cleric;
6th Wizard; Spell Focus Evocation Feat
7th Cleric;
8th Wizard; +1 Int.
9th Cleric; Spell Focus Necromancy Feat
10th Wizard; Greater Spell Focus Evocation Feat
11th Cleric;
12th Wizard; +1 Int., Greater Spell Focus Necromancy
13th Cleric;
14th Wizard;
15th Cleric; Improved Initiative Feat
16th Wizard; +1 Int.
17th Cleric;
18th Wizard; Spell Penetration Feat
19th Cleric;
20th Wizard; +1 Wis., Combat Casting Feat
21st Cleric; Superior Initiative Feat
22nd Wizard;
23rd Cleric;
24th Wizard; +1 Wis., Improved Combat Casting Feat
25th Cleric;
26th Wizard;
27th Cleric; Greater Spell Penetration Feat
28th Wizard; +1 Wis.
29th Cleric;
30th Wizard; Empower Spell Feat, Epic Spell Penetration Feat
31st Wizard;
32nd Wizard; +1 Wis.
33rd Wizard; Epic Spell Focus Evocation Feat
34th Wizard;
35th Wizard; Epic Spell Focus Necromancy
36th Wizard; +1 Wis., Epic Spell Warding Feat
37th Cleric;
38th Cleric;
39th Wizard; Epic Spell Dragon Knight or Mummy Dust Feat
40th Shadow Dancer; +1 Constitution, plow-in skill points to achieve a base level of 40 in Hide and Move Silently and 20 points in Tumble. Additionally, consider spending at least 10 points in Spot and Listen, and 15 points in Set Trap.

Development Reasons:

Class:
Halfling:: not really a requirement but it does allow Str. to be 6 while allowing additional points to go to other attributes. Additionally, it’s kind of cool to see such a small being with SO MUCH POWER (or such a dramatic transformation when Shape-changing or Tenser’s Transformation).

Attributes:
Str.: Not needed for this character – transmutation and summon spells are used instead.
Dex.: Nice, and gives an additional +2 to AC (though not needed).
Con.: Gives more hit points which is always advantageous.
Int.: Increased to a “natural” 20 points which gives access to all Wizard spell levels, more spells, AND provides greater spell “penetration” for arcane spells. This is increased before Wis. Because it adds more skill points to the character (which is VERY important).
Wis.: Increased to a “natural” 20 points which gives access to all Cleric spell levels, more spells, AND provides greater spell “penetration” for divine spells.
Char.: No detriment here with 10 points (skill points in persuasion are more important).

Skill Points:
Concentration is key to a spell caster’s effectiveness AND at epic levels it allows selection of the valuable Improved Combat Casting Feat.
Spellcraft is important for achieving epic spells. In particular the epic spell Warding must have 34 Spellcraft points before it can be chosen. Additionally it is often an alternate check to Lore in most dialogue interaction where Lore is required.
Persuade is extremely useful for a character’s interaction and can be taken to extended limits with an appropriate charm spell (effectively doubled).
Hide of 10 is needed for the Shadow Dancer. Additionally, when increased* maximally it will allow the character to be invisible from most opponents even IF they have used invisibility purge, true seeing, or one of the dispel spells.
Move Silently of 8 is needed for the Shadow Dancer. (also see the reason above for its increase when achieving 40th level.)
Tumble of 5 is needed for the Shadow Dancer. Additionally, when increased* to 20 it confers the maximum benefit of +4 to AC.
(*increases beyond the amounts required for the Shadow Dancer should NOT be done until obtaining the Shadow Dancer class when you can place points in these skills without the penalty.)
Once obtaining 40th level and selecting the Shadow Dancer class:
Spot and Listen give the basic ability to see opponents that are hiding.
Set Trap is important for those exceedingly rare occasions when you are in a null-magic zone. In this “zone” you have 3 choices for offensive combat. 1st you can summon while in a normal “zone” and bring it into the null zone. 2nd you can cast any epic spell (presumably Dragon Knight). 3rd you can set extremely powerful traps by using your Shadow Dancer “Hide in Plain Sight” feat to effectively remain unseen until luring your opponent into the traps. Of course unlike a normal zone, you will not have the ability to enhance this skill via a magic item – which is why you need to have a naturally high set trap skill (and hide and move silently).

1st level: Animal Domain makes all summons stronger and True Seeing at Cleric spell level 3 instead of 5 (which frees-up 5th level Cleric spells). Plant Domain gives 2 very important Druid spells: Creeping Doom and Barkskin. Creeping Doom is one of the few spells in the game that has no magical resistance, plus the damage increases substantially overtime, finally the spell often disrupts the opponents ability to cast spells. The only defense against it is a “working” dispel magic or damage reduction that is VERY high. Barkskin can work in conjunction with any other AC increases (which is unique and very advantageous). Note that selecting these two domains essentially make the Cleric a Druid while providing the additional extras that a Cleric offers. Dodge Feat is “gotten out of the way” for the ability to select the Shadow Dancer class.
2nd level: The Wizard class was chosen instead of the Sorcerer for several reasons. 1st its attribute is based on intelligence which allows for MANY more skill points. 2nd it offers a wider variety of spells. 3rd it gives several extra feats. 4th A specialty Wizard provides a moderate offset to the reduced spells cast per day the Wizard has vs. the Sorcerer. The specialty Necromancy was chosen: 1) to offset the reduced spells cast per day a Wizard suffers vs. a Sorcerer, 2) to provide a moderate increase in effectiveness of necromancy spells, 3) because unlike ANY other specialty class, the class it DIS-FAVORS is divinity – a spell grouping that is most easily replaced via Cleric spells. Note that there are only 2 spells of any importance the removed by selecting this specialty: True Strike (which can easily be embedded into a magical item for unlimited use), and Premonition (which is obviated through the use of epic spell Warding). The Pixie familiar is chosen for its ability to open locks and disarm traps – EVEN in null-magic zones (plus it’s a decent fighter).
3rd level: Mobility Feat is “gotten out of the way” for the ability to select the Shadow Dancer class.
6th level: Spell Focus Evocation Feat increases the probability that an evocation spell will be effective. (the most important focus because of the shear number of offensive spells in this focus.)
9th level: Spell Focus Necromancy Feat increases the probability that a necromancy spell will be effective. (the second most important focus offensively.)
10th level: Greater Spell Focus Evocation Feat (an additional improvement to this spell focus).
12th level: Greater Spell Focus Necromancy Feat (an additional improvement to this spell focus).
15th level: Improved Initiative Feat (speeds up your casting ability).
18th level: Spell Penetration Feat (increases the ability to overcome spell resistance of opponents). Overcoming spell resistance starts to become important at these higher levels.
20th level: Combat Casting Feat (an otherwise useless feat BUT its necessary for the epic feat Improved Combat Casting – which is valuable).
21st level: Superior Initiative Feat (doubles the effectiveness of Improved Initiative).
24th level: Improved Combat Casting Feat (very important for limiting extra attacks of opportunity by opponents when casting spells at them).
27th level; Greater Spell Penetration Feat (doubles the effectiveness of Spell Penetration).
30th level: Epic Spell Penetration Feat (triples the effectiveness of Spell Penetration). Empower Spell Feat – VERY IMPORTANT. At this level the character is capable of casting spells that are worthwhile to have “empowered”. In particular the most offensive spell in the game is Isaac’s Greater Missile Storm (a 6th level spell). When “empowered” it is a selectable 8th level spell that 3 castings of can kill virtually ANY opponent. Tenser’s Transformation is another Wizard spell that benefits from an “empowered” casting – enabling the character to transform into a VERY powerful fighter. Additionally, several Cleric spells can benefit from an “empowered” state. Most importantly the “empowered” spells Fox’s Cunning and Owl’s Wisdom can dramatically increase the Intelligence and Wisdom of the character to further bolster his/her effectiveness with spells against an opponent’s resistance.
32nd level: at this point we are deviating from the alternating Cleric/Wizard level progression that has so far kept us from exp. point penalties (and generally made the character more useful at any level). The reason for this is that the character needs to achieve EPIC WIZARD status for the final two feat selections so that we have the ability to select epic spells at those times (36th level and 39th level).
33rd level: Epic Spell Focus Evocation Feat (triples the effectiveness of Spell Focus Evocation).
35th level: Epic Spell Focus Necromancy Feat (triples the effectiveness of Spell Focus Necromancy).
36th level: Epic Spell Warding Feat (the most effective damage reduction available, not for use with Element Shield and Melstith’s Acid Sheath – instead use Greater Stoneskin or damage reduction/resistance armor).
38th level: The character’s final level as a Cleric. This tops-out the class at level 17 which gives access to the highest 9th level spells. Additional spells per day at this level can be obtained through magical items conferring additional spell-slots at this level and/or via Wisdom modification.
39th level: The character’s final level as a Wizard. This tops-out the class at level 22. Because most of the offensive spells are from this class, the additional levels often provide additional damage with higher level spells. Epic Spell Dragon Knight Feat is probably the strongest summon in the game (other than an epic level (29+) Palemaster’s undead summon). Epic Spell Mummy Dust is an alternative, but its ability to “hit” high AC opponents is a substantial weakness of this summon (by comparison to the Dragon Knight). Epic Spell Mage Armor is another alternative, but there are several spells amongst the Wizard and Cleric that when combined can achieve AC levels that are about 2/3rds as strong as Epic Mage Armor – additionally Epic Spell Warding often obviates any need for it. The two epic offensive spells are nice, but are not worth the “cost” because they can usually be compensated for via all the other offensive spells the character has.
40th level: The character’s sole Shadow Dancer level. This level provides several benefits. First the character now has access without penalty to the skills hide, move silently, tumble, listen, and spot – allowing the character to increase these skills without penalty, (and in the case of hide and move silently – to epic levels). Additionally of course the character now gains the feat “Hide in Plain Sight”. This feat allows a measure of offensive ability by usually giving the character a “first strike” opportunity with spells. More importantly it gives the character the ability to hide AFTER casting the spell, usually defeating any offensive attack by opponents. Finally, it can be invaluable on those rare occasions when traversing a hostile null-magic zone, OR even allowing trap setting in a null magic zone for offensive purposes there. As an aside – it also seems natural to ONLY select this class (on a single level basis) on such a High character level (i.e. Hide in Plain sight is an “uber” feature and should only be utilized by an “uber” character unless the character intends on spending more levels as a Shadow Dancer).

Final Character comments on effective use:

This character is really all about spell casting, use the wrong spells and you are “SOL”. The best way to test this (or any epic character) is via an epic leveler with a monster spawn feature. With such a test you can often see which spells are most effective in most circumstances. However I’ll provide a few comments here on effective spell use :

1. Spell Selection Generally:

Do NOT select Wizard spells that are covered by Cleric spells, instead stick to those unique spells that only a Wizard can cast that are usually offensive in nature. Additionally, make sure you choose all spells that have both No save and No spell resistance – for those occasions when other spells/methods of attack will not work.
To help with these two important selection attributes look here (under each spell):

http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwint...rdlevelone.php

2. Set-up your “always-on” type spells after a full rest. These spells are usually VERY long-lasting spells that should “carry-you-through” until you need to rest again. This usually means that, absent a successful dispel magic spell striping them, you will only need one of each of them taking up a spell slot (allowing you to have other spells on hand). Start with them in this order:
A. Cleric 4th level Empowered: Owl’s Wisdom, Fox’s Cunning, and Endurance.
B. Cleric 1st level Protection from Alignment (evil).
C. Cleric 2nd level Barkskin
D. Cleric 2nd level Ultravision
D. Cleric 3rd level Darkfire (if desired)
E. Cleric 3rd level Magic Vestment
F. Cleric 3rd level Protection from Elements (w/no elemental protection items)
G. Cleric 4th level Death Ward
H. Cleric 4th level Greater Magic Weapon (if needed)
I. Wizard 1st level Mage Armor
J. Wizard 6th level Greater Stone Skin (if desired, don’t stack with epic warding though)

Other spells I find mandatory and sometimes have 2 of (for when one wears-out)

K. Cleric 3rd level Clarity (w/no item protection or potion)
L. Cleric 3rd level Negative Energy Protection (w/no item protection)
M. Cleric 4th level Freedom of Movement (w/no item protection)
N. Cleric 5th level Spell Resistance (w/no equivalent item protection)
O. Wizard 1st level Shield
P. Wizard 4th level Improved Invisibility
Q. Wizard 5th level Lesser Spell Mantel
R. Wizard 6th level Globe of Invulnerability
S. Wizard 7th level Protection from Spells

3. If possible ALWAYS immobilize your target opponent(s) before you attack them. This usually means “hiding” and staying a safe distance away, (as far as possible), and then casting an immobilization spell and then hiding again. Note however that if attacking a magic using opponent, or a group with one or more magic using opponents, that MOST immobilization spells will not immobilize them from casting spells – particularly dispel magic spells that could not only free them but any others in a group as well. Stun type spells work IF the opponent isn’t immune to a mental attack. There are however 2 spells that will work regardless of most “immunities” IF the opponent doesn’t resist it or fails its savings throw: Wizard’s 9th level Bigby’s Crushing Hand and 7th level Bigby’s Grasping Hand. So its best to use these spells against all magic using opponents first.
Assuming we have the Mages and Magic-Casting Monsters subdued, the next best spell to cast is usually the first level Wizard Grease spell in front of the group of opponents WITHOUT touching them. Then cast 2nd level Web spell in exactly the same space and manner.
With this preparation complete its now time to cast your first spell that will initiate combat with the group (i.e. where the group will respond and start moving toward you). My preference is to cast first level Wizard Grease again because it virtually always works and then cast Web at them soon after. (The idea is to catch them all in the same area.) Typically another couple of Web spells should keep the group immobilized.

4. With your opponents immobilized in a confined area, start firing-off your lasting area-effects spells. The first should be those spells that increase damage with duration. In particular I like Cleric 7th level Creeping Doom and an “empowered” CloudKill, then spells like Wizard 8th level Incindiary Cloud and 6th level Acid Fog. IF the opponents have multiple heal potions available AND have high hit-points then it could be necessary to fire off a volley of “empowered” Issac’s Greater Missle Storm to “push” the coupe de gra before they can heal themselves.

5. Waxing dragons and other tough creatures. Sure several volleys of “empowered” Issac’s Greater Missles Storm will kill just about anything, but its something of a waste on these creatures in most instances. Instead the preferred method is to use Harm (if they are alive), or Heal (if they are undead). Now this is a touch-attack and it can be resisted – so hopefully you’ll overcome the resistance, but if you don’t you’ll need to be prepared to cast this spell again. Also, it’s very useful here to have gloves with a high attack bonus and with True Strike spell (unlimited). Once the spell works though you’ll have a rather easy time of killing them – usually just a Wizard 1st level Magic Missiles should take care of the job. Be quick with the coupe de gra though, the creature could be regenerating.

6. Summoning spells are best used for distractions. Good alignment characters have a distinct advantage here with Wizard 8th level Greater Planar Binding. But you have a “monsterous” variety here to choose from, remember – if possible summon from your Cleric spell listing (rather than the Wizard grouping).

7. When all else fails: hopefully if you have run-out of offensive spells that your opponent(s) have to, and will start physical attacks. If they do this then your in luck, Wizard 4th level Element Shield and 5th level Melstith’s Acid sheath have no save or spell resistance. The ONLY thing that can prevent the opponent from receiving damage from these spells if they successfully attack you is IF they have that particular elemental resistance at the required damage level (which is almost impossible for Acid Sheath unless the creature is naturally immune to acid). To prevent your own demise while utilizing this method you’ll need to use Wizard 6th level Greater Stone Skin and hope that the opponent doesn’t have better than a +5 weapon. The other remedy is simply use Cleric 6th level Heal on your character while the opponent is hitting you. It shouldn’t take to long before the opponent dies.


Well hopefully you liked this character build and will try it out.
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:29 AM   #7
Legolas
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 31, 2001
Location: The zephyr lands beneath the brine.
Age: 39
Posts: 5,459
A few remarks on that cleric/wizard/shadow dancer build.

Raising Spellcraft to 35 instead of 34 gives you +1 to your saves vs spells (and raising it to 40 gives another +1).
Raising Tumble to 40 increases your AC bonus to +8 instead of +4 as a maximum.
However, you are not after a high AC in this build. Both the Tumble and Dexterity bonusses do not do much for the character, as you do not intend to be involved in any combat.
And if you are, you want to be hit to get the enemy to suffer as much damage from Elemental Shield and the Acid Sheath as possible before their duration runs out. Constitution for high hitpoints is more valuable here.

True Sight can see through Hide in Shadows. So that's no protection there, although it does work against Invisibility Purge and See Invisibility.

By splitting up your casting ability over two different classes using two different attributes, you are going to make your spell save DCs lower than they need to be. Also, your spells are much easier to dispel, and your spell penetration ability will suffer. Essentially this means that you'll not be as magic effective as pureclass characters.

When hiding, to cast a spell, you'll need to step out of stealth mode. Because you do have a low AC compared to most other classes (and most other classes have a better base attack), this leaves you vulnerable to attack. Concentration helps prevent spell disruption, as do damage reduction spells. Ideally though, you'd set the character build up to have the Automatic Quicken feats. This allows you to fire your disabling spells before the opponent has time to react.

Discipline is sorely lacking. If you let yourself be surprised, melee characters will have no trouble bringing you down. The lack of Quickened spells here means you'll have a hard time doing anything to stop them.

Your hiding skills of 40-ish will be respectable, but most characters investing in spot or listen will have little trouble finding you thi way. On the bright side, you have magical invisibility working for you as well.

Your own reflex and fortitude saves are going to be low, leaving the character vulnerable to many area of effect spells and traps.

Finally, lacking Search skillpoints, you will have a hard time knowing when to disarm traps using your magic.

High level, high SR monks may be a problem. However, Stoneskin + Acid Sheath can take care of them quite nicely. Use Shadow Shield to protect against a quivering palm and you're set.
A far greater threat is posed by other clerics (who can be quite well protected from immobilisation magics and have Truesight), other Wizards (who can do all the immobilisation and swift slaying you can dish out, and also carry True Sight), Sorcerers (who will easily counter all your magics, and, yes, also have TS to see through your hiding), and especially Rogues.

Of course, Devestating Critical characters with their high Strengh and Bigby resistance might get fortunate as well. Most of those will have a hard time catching you however.

So while it is potentially powerful, the class isn't quite yet optimized. Even with the neccesary changes, it maintains sufficient weaknesses to allow it to be defeated by a respectable range of decently built characters provided they are intelligently played.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:35 PM   #8
ScottG
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 13, 2003
Location: Never Never Land
Age: 54
Posts: 267
Hmm, didn't know about the spellcraft bonus. Certainly worth another point for the additional +1. Whether its worth another 5 points is up to player. Still, with all the magical protection saves shouldn't be an issue unless its dispelled.

Truesight always-on is a rareity. This gives you the "jump" (initial attack).

Tumble doesn't increase AC past +4 on my game (with the most recent patch).. I wish it did.

Attribute problems are overcome with Cleric empowered attribute spells. There is no "suffereing" here unless your increase is dispelled (i.e. you will be as effective as a pure class is most of the time).

Automatic quicken spells are rather useless offensivly (to many spell slots "above" leaves in-effective spells), this leaves healing your character as the alternative.

The lack of Discipline CAN be a problem, but unless that same knockdown character has truesight operating it shouldn't ever be a problem. Even then of course there are methods to stop them.. i.e. bigby's "hands". Or time stop + whatever.

Hiding is as good as it gets for ANY character.

Saves are not a problem, in fact you'll likely never need them with all of the magical protection at the character's disposal.

Traps (finding and disarming) are taken care of by the familiar (as are locks).

Death Ward protects against quivering palm without making the 7th level Wizard expenditure (and lasts longer).

Magic attackers can be taken care of easily with the method mentioned, and Rouges can be killed rather easily.

Critical attacks are still problematic, this is the one area where any mage (except an undead or a palemaster) is still vunerable. Chances are though that even VERY high strength opponents will still be able to be either physically restrained or mental restraint. (or the time stop + attack).

Essentially this means that because of knockdown and critical attacks physical attackers with high hit points and strength are still the most difficult to kill. Even then though, if there aren't to many, its still pretty easy.

So I might agree with you on the spellcraft one point additional, otherwise the character is VERY optimized. Weakness are minimized provided you play the character properly.

I've tested this character with multiples of 40 level fighters, rouges, clerics, and wizards (3 of each) - all at the same time. I've also tested with Multiples of various high level monsters such as prismatic dragons, dracoliches, liches, high drow wizards, black slaads, epic fiends, etc. all in multiples at the same time. (all were AI, but against a real person singularly shouldn't pose a problem either).

[ 11-14-2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: ScottG ]
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:38 PM   #9
Legolas
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 31, 2001
Location: The zephyr lands beneath the brine.
Age: 39
Posts: 5,459
From my experience, melee characters are the least of a caster's problems. It's the well-played rogues that are the caster slayers.
And no, I've not yet found a single AI set that's convincingly intelligent. Most of the time you'll see the creatures wasting their rounds on using mind-affecting spells on people immune to mind effects, innate Death abilities against people immune to Death Magic and doing nothing when they can't see their enemy at the time.

Also, they do have better hiding simply because they are both Dex based and get more bonus feats. Where the Wizard/Cleric/SD can be happy with 40 hide/move, the other class can easily get 60 without it affecting their abilities in any significant way, and much more than that if desired. The significant difference being that characters with spot or listen can up this number to 40 without much trouble. 40/40 means you'll be detected far more often than 40/60.

The difference between Quicken and Automatic Quicken is that the former puts your spells 4 categories higher, whereas the latter makes all your spells Quickened. Even the level 9 ones. It takes a few feats but for a class making stealth its strength, I daresay it'll be worth it.

Attribute bonusses are capped at +12. The higher the base, the higher the maximum, the greater the bonus. You definately want to optimize the way you spend your initial points.

For traps, you can't rely on the familiar alone. It works wonders when you know where to expect them, but otherwise, a level 22 pixie won't save you from the worst of them.

Finally, reliance on spells for protection. Saves will certainly be an issue. Any level 40 spellcaster can remove a LOT of your protective magics with just a single spell, and they have a good number of those. Saves are going to matter.

I'm sure the character is effective in many situations, but then that goes for most level 40's [img]smile.gif[/img]
What I want to see is why it would be a cut above the rest.
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Old 11-14-2004, 10:52 PM   #10
ScottG
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 13, 2003
Location: Never Never Land
Age: 54
Posts: 267
The "hide" ability of this character (along with the massive magical ability both offensivly and defensivly), make even a well-played rogue easy-pickings.. but don't take my word for it, try the build.

Attributes based points and feats can increase the hide skills, but really how much more? Chances are NONE will be spent on Feats (there are to many other better feats to choose from), so that leaves you with attribute increases. I think from a prior rogue build I achieved something like 32 in Dex. and that equals only 8 more points for each skill - not enough IMO to even talk about. As far as spoting the character is concerned, well you said it, Improved Invisibility. If that doesn't work for you we have displacement and finally the various sanctuarys. In otherwords this is a non-issue.

Ahh, automatic quicken three is what is required, perhaps this could be acomplished with the removal of the improved initiative and superior initiative? (still missing a feat though). The problem here is WHEN you can get them.., and when you can get other feats that might be more advantageous. If it can be done without real compromise then I'm all for it. I could see giving up Necromancy Epic Focus for it.

"level 22 pixie won't save you from the worst of them."
-Perhaps not, but it will save you from most of them. (and presumably damage reduction will for anything lethal). Again, another non-issue.

As for attributes in general, they are high enough with the aforementioned empowered spells. Another non-issue.

Played properly, saves won't be an issue. I've tested this extensivly (this is in line with my reasoning on primary attributes). Sure, a level 40 caster can remove a lot of protection - what else is new? Saves will not "save" your protection in such an instance. (at least not reliably.) Again, another non-issue.

I think you misunderstood what my original intent for this build was. Its that the character should be as, or more, effective than MOST other characters in ALL situations except null and wild magic zones, while still having decent capability in these zones. There will always be situations where a more purist build will triumph, but invariably that same build will be woefully inadequete in another situation. Conversly, this build will not.

All-in-all I think the build (for most situations) is more than a "cut above the rest". And sure, it could probably stand some improvement - in particular I think your suggestion of the 3 quicken's is a good idea if it can be done without substantial compromises, (as of course the +1 to spellcraft is).
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