Avoid ECL classes

[Larry_OHF]

toriuxik :

We need to talk a minute. I have sent you a personal message (a PM) that you have not read that says that you need to down-size your sigature to the lawful limits of this forum. You will find this rule in the Terms of Service that you were supposed to read prior to joining this forum community. I do not know, but you may have the options set to receive notification in your e-mail account that tells you that you received a PM from this forum, and it also tells you what the content of that PM is. This is not the first time you have been asked to down-size it, either. Another moderator has asked the same prior to my request. If it is not changed immediately...I will ask the Webmaster to take it off your account.

Next. I see that a Moderator has asked this thread's participants to remember to conduct themselves with respect to one another. Why did you take this personally, when he did not name you as the offender? Do you feel guilty, and felt that you had to retaliate to a post that was not directed at you initially? Your responses to Luvian have proven your guilt and you are now required to withdrawl your attitude of disrespect before it brings the attention of the Webmaster here. We do not want anyone to suffer at the hands of a flaming trouble-maker, and we do everything possible to help everyone stay on peaceful terms. Do not question a moderator's judgement. If you feel that you have been falsely accused, you may petition the Webmaster privately. Yet, I am sure you know that you are guilty, and you will not want to risk a suspension. So...let's drop this...play nice, and forget about trying to be the big boy on the block. Shall we?

Thanks. LoL.

[toriuxik]

Originally posted by Gimli: "Weapon finesse can be made to apply to any weapon at least 1 size category smaller than you. It can also be used on neat weapons with that as a special ability (like the spiked chain if I remember right, which I may not)." Maybe with a Mod I'm not aware of, but in IWD II, so far as I know, weapon finesse applies only to short blades. "Thats why its pretty popular with single classed monks with lower strength scores. You can still hit, and your damage is already higher than anybody elses. A monk with 20 dex and Weapon Finesse is very powerful. Keep boosting dex too." It would be more popular if it actually worked without modifying the game; as it comes, weapon finesse in IWD II does not apply to unarmed combat. And I wouldn't say a low Str Monk, even at high levels, has damage "higher than anybody elses". They get a d20 as base damage - but with a low Str, they get no bonus to damage; their criticals only do 2x damage and only happen on a 20; they don't get any added damage a magic weapon would grant. Also they can't take weapon focus or specialization with fists. A character with maxed out Str and a magic 2-handed weapon does the most melee damage, by far - it's not even close.

I'm talking about the pnp version. This was a reply to a previous message suggesting that using weapon finesse on unarmed attacks is up to the DM. Its only up to the DM if he's the type that likes to change the core rules. If he DOES want to, thats fine. Not all the rules make sense. It IS up to the DM in the end however.

lol, in IWD2, a monk with 10 strength does 2-30 damage per hit at level 29-30. A barbarian with an outlandish strength of 36 (with rage etc etc), wielding a Great Sword, deals 1d12+19. Thats more, but only while he has his magic aide to his strength. If the monk had the same bonuses (about 10 points worth or so), his damage would be greater.

Also, no other class can deal a d20 in damage, and in IWD 2, they deal 1d20+1d10. lol, it looks like you failed your 'test'. Whatta crock.

Anyway, I say fug you moderator. I was aided by memy to get this sig to work in the first place (with the coding for it), and he obviously saw it. Perhaps the rules of the board have changes since then (this would have been in the late spring or early summer this year), okay. I would think that he would have far more presence of mind (and he certainly does, more than you could ever hope to have) and have mentioned 'hey, dude, your sig is way too big'. And if the rules of the boards HAVE changed since then, fine, but don't suggest that I'm too fugging stupid to read them when I signed up.

Its funny, you try to suggest that I'm a troll with all the bluntness of a sledge hammer, and yet, you claim that their ARE no trolls on the boards here. I think their may yet be a hole in your logic, friend.

Feel free to delete me, I don't plan on returning here again.

[Gimli]

Well I won't reply to the ridiculous portion of the previous post. But some number crunching seems like it would clear up the damage points further.

"lol, in IWD2, a monk with 10 strength does 2-30 damage per hit at level 29-30."

Well I am talking about regular mode, where levels 29-30 aren't very likely to be attained. But regardless, the numbers will never add up for the Monk against a high Str Fighter-type with a 2 handed weapon.

First, the Monk will have alot of low damage totals when the dice he rolls for damage come up low, because there are no pluses to his damage. I would take a d12 over a d20 any day when I know the d12 is going to have say +10 or more to damage from the Strength bonus (*1.5 with a 2-hander), another +2 from weapon specialization, and perhaps say another d8 or so from magical effects from the weapon. The Monk's potential low damage score is 1 point of damage; the fighter's potential low score would be 14. The most a Monk could do would be 20 (and there's only a 5% chance it will happen - in fact, fully 70% of the time, the Monk's damage will be less than or equal to the fighter's *minimum*), the most the Fighter-type could do would be 30. But on average, the fighter-type will do alot more because he always has a huge "guaranteed" bonus to damage that a low str monk doesn't.

But that's just for non-critical strikes. The greatsword will critical twice as often as fists; and the greataxe does 3x critical damage instead of 2x (ditto the halberd, that is what my fighter(4)/monk(x) uses). A Monk's mimimum critical damage is a paltry 2 points from a d20; a fighter's with a greatsword as above would have a minimum of 28; the monk's maximum is 40; a fighter with a greataxe as above could dish out 90+. Also there are keen weapons that make fighter criticals even more frequent; there are no keen fists. Both classes can take improved critical so that's a wash.

Plus there are monsters with damage resistance that the monk's damage will only penetrate on very high rolls, whereas the fighter with the high str will get through on every strike because of his "guaranteed" damage. In cases like that the fighter will way outdamage a Monk.

"A barbarian with an outlandish strength of 36 (with rage etc etc), wielding a Great Sword, deals 1d12+19. Thats more, but only while he has his magic aide to his strength. **If the monk had the same bonuses (about 10 points worth or so), his damage would be greater.**"

That's the point though - finally maybe you agreed with me, that the Monk could benefit from a high Str!

"Also, no other class can deal a d20 in damage, and in IWD 2, they deal 1d20+1d10. lol, it looks like you failed your 'test'. Whatta crock."

They do that at 29th and 30th level; they don't get to d20 until 16th. And with low strength, alot of the damage totals will still be very low.

I'm not here to "test" anyone, I just post what I feel is the correct interpretation of the rules of IWD II (not PnP) and hope that others will do the same so that I can learn from them and be a better player. The board is here so we can help each other and share info, but you don't want to post info that is wrong or misleading. I'd be glad to admit I am wrong on certain points, I'm sure others know facets of the game better than I - and I would be happy to profit from their knowledge rather than bicker with them.

[Luvian]

Feel free to continue this discussion if you want, the fact that we got a troll does not mean the thread is closed.