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Old 10-24-2005, 10:46 PM   #11
Aerich
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If you play on insane, the level-based advantage of the C/R dual class disappears in favour of other classes. You can expect roughly 4.5 million XP, which will take a R/C multiclass to about lvl 17/18. As a dual class, you will end up (if you dual at lvl 14 for lvl 7 spells) with a Cleric[14]/Ranger[20]. It's not a fantastic build compared to a F/C, C/F, or multi R/C. Do what you wish.
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Old 10-25-2005, 06:58 PM   #12
NobleNick
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Quote:
Originally posted by krunchyfrogg:
Yeah, but a Fighter and Ranger basically max out their power at level 13 (I know they gain more power after this, but it is minimal), while a spellcaster keeps getting more powerful at every level in this game. That's why you really want (in general, I know there are some exceptions) to dual class FROM a Fighter or Thief (Thieves max out their usefulness too) INTO a spellcasting class.
krunchyfrogg,

I agree with both your points; but with a small caveat on the first: Something I did not realize until maybe a year ago is that warrior THAC0 drops (improves) by one point for each CLVL. You would expect an extra 4 points of THAC0 of an MC(17) to be a killer advantage; but the 5 PP stack gives the DC(13) a point in THAC0, bringing the MC's total advantage to only 3 points. The extra 3 PP also add in bonus damage points. But the "double killer" advantage is that the DC gets the extra ApR at 5 PP.

Compare expected approximate "damage per round" numbers for an MC F(17)/C(xx) and a DC F(13)/C(yy) with, say, a +3 Morning Star (2D4+3 = average 8HP damage), and +3 sling (1D4+3 = average 5.5 HP damage) on "soft" (AC = 0) and "hard" (AC = -10) targets in the late game. (See APPENDIX, below my sig, if you are interested in the mathematical details.) It's an overall very slight advantage for the MC with Sling, but the DC is clearly superior in any and all cases with the close-in weapon.

Sling___Soft___Hard
DC(13)__29.8___16.4 --> DC is 9% better against soft target
MC(17)__27.4___19.2 --> MC is 17% better against hard target

M'star__Soft___Hard
DC(13)__56.7___31.2 --> DC is 70% better against soft target
MC(17)__33.3___23.3 \-> DC is 34% better against hard target

I ran the numbers out of curiousity: The MC Fighter must reach F(20) to be on parity with the DC F(13) using a Morningstar +3 against a "hard" target, assuming both stacked PP to their max. But, no matter how experienced the MC gets, the DC will always and forever be 70% better against a soft target. That's the power of stacking PP.

Hope you found this interesting.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


APPENDIX:

The DC F(13) has 3 PP in Sling, and assume STR = 18/50. So damage = 5.5 + 3 (for 3PP) + 4 (STR bonus) = 12.5 HP average damage per hit. APR = 2 + 0.5 (for 3PP) = 2.5 ApR. THAC0 = 7 (natural) - 3 (for 3PP) - 3 (weapon bonus) = 1. If all hits landed, the damage per round would be 12.5 * 2.5 = 31.25 HP. Since 95% and 50% of blows land for a "soft" and "hard" target (see below), then the average damage corrected for critical hits and misses, is 29.8 and 16.4 respectively.

The DC F(13) numbers for the Morningstar, are: damage = 8 + 5 (for 5PP) + 4 = 17 HP; and APR = 2 + 1.5 (for 5PP) = 3.5 ApR. THAC0 = 7 (natural) - 3 (for 5PP) - 3 (weapon bonus) = 1. If all hits landed, the damage per round would be 17 * 3.5 = 59.5 HP. Since 95% and 50% of blows land for a "soft" and "hard" target (see below), then the average damage is about 56.7 and 31.2, respectively.

For the DC F(13) for both weapons, the chance for hit against a late game "soft target" (AC = 0) is (21 - 1 + 0)/20 = 20/20 = 100% which is greater than 95%, so chance = 95%. Chance for hit against a late game "hard target" (AC = -10) is (21 - 1 + (-10))/20 = 10/20 = 50%.

The MC F(17) has 2 PP in Sling, and assume STR = 18/50. So damage = 5.5 + 2 (for 2PP) + 4 (STR bonus) = 11.5 HP average damage per hit. APR = 2 + 0.5 (for 2PP) = 2.5 ApR. THAC0 = 3 (natural) - 2 (for 2PP) - 3 (weapon bonus) = -2. If all hits landed, the damage per round would be 11.5 * 2.5 = 28.8 HP. Since 95% and 65% of blows land for a "soft" and "hard" target (see below), then the average damage is about 27.4 and 19.2 respectively.

The MC F(17) numbers for the Morningstar, are: damage = 8 + 2 (for 2PP) + 4 = 14 HP; and APR = 2 + 0.5 (for 2PP) = 2.5 ApR. THAC0 = 3 (natural) - 2 (for 2PP) - 3 (weapon bonus) = -2. If all hits landed, the damage per round would be 14 * 2.5 = 35.0 HP. Since 95% and 65% of blows land for a "soft" and "hard" target (see below), then the average damage is about 33.3 and 23.3 respectively.

For the MC F(17) for both weapons, the chance for hit against a late game "soft target" (AC = 0) is (21 - (-2) + 0)/20 = 23/20 = 115% which is greater than 95%, so chance = 95%. Chance for hit against a late game "hard target" (AC = -10) is (21 - (-2) + (-10))/20 = 13/20 = 65%.

Example of correcting for critical hits and misses: If chance to hit is 65%, then blow lands 13 times out of 20 attempts. One of those 13 (on average) will be a critical hit, counting double (which is the same as adding in another hit) so muliply by (14/13). A critical miss means you lose the next attack, and an average of 1 in 20 attacks results in a critical miss; so multiply by (20/21). So adjusted effective hits per attempt is 65% * (14/13) * (20/21) = 66.67% .
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Old 10-25-2005, 10:01 PM   #13
krunchyfrogg
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Oh, it's quite interesting. The problem is, of course, getting to a certain point in the game without a cleric, to use the above example, and then after that not having those fighter levels for a while.

After the dual-class is activated, then sure, the DC is more powerful. But that's a long way away from a party starting off, even on the insane setting. The MC character starts off pretty powerful, and gains power throughout the entire game.

[ 10-25-2005, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: krunchyfrogg ]
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Old 10-26-2005, 08:47 AM   #14
ister
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Noble Nick:

Nitpicking here, but you have neglected the strength bonus on the to hit calculations for the morning star. Also the dexterity bonus for the sling.

These will increase the percentage of hits landed in all cases, and make the Grand Master even better relative to the MC.
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Old 10-26-2005, 10:08 AM   #15
NobleNick
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Quote:
Originally posted by krunchyfrogg:
Oh, it's quite interesting. The problem is, of course, getting to a certain point in the game without a cleric, to use the above example, and then after that not having those fighter levels for a while.

After the dual-class is activated, then sure, the DC is more powerful. But that's a long way away from a party starting off, even on the insane setting. The MC character starts off pretty powerful, and gains power throughout the entire game.
Agreed, krunchyfrogg, on all points; except that I would say that the MC starts off "O.K." The lack of Fighter after the DC, as you mention, is a big problem; which is one reason why I take a pair of DC Clerics, starting one off as a Cleric and the other one as a Fighter. An MC F/C or R/C is a good build, and quite popular; but, for IWD+HoW+TotLM on Normal difficulty, I want 2 Clerics, even if the problem of the DC gap didn't exist. And I contend that there is considerably more power in a DC F(13)/C + DC C(12_or_13)/F (or F/C + C/R) than there is in 2 MC R/C characters, or ANY other pair of Clerics/Cleric_mixes.

@ister: --> If you know the formula for effect of STR and DEX on THAC0 in IWD, I'd love to hear it.

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Old 10-26-2005, 02:04 PM   #16
ister
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Well the manaul lists it doesn't it? As I recall (may be off a bit, I don't have the manual right now)

Strength on THAC0

15-18/50 - +1
18/51-18/99 - +2
18/00-20 - +3

Dexterity on THAC0

15 +1
17-18 +2
19-20 +3


I haven't tested this and this may not even be what the manual says, but I THINK it's right.
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Old 10-26-2005, 05:46 PM   #17
krunchyfrogg
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It's close, but not perfect:

Strength:

17-150): +1 THAC0
151)-199) +2
100) +3

(I can't remember off the top of my head what happens above 18/00)

Dexterity:

16: +1 THAC0
17-18: +2
19: +3
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Old 10-27-2005, 01:51 AM   #18
Aerich
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Note that the Dex bonus to Thaco is only for ranged weapons.

A mc F/C or R/C is a lot less work than messing around with the dc, and makes the party stronger at all points of the game, in contrast to the up-and-down effect of the dc.

I believe you'd come around to my way of thinking, Nick, if you'd play on insane for a while. Access to cleric spells throughout the game is of much more value overall than a better fighter. It's especially important in the early game. Second, the mc isn't a bad fighter at all, and is a better fighter at the dc's changeover point. Moreover, by playing on harder levels, you reduce the length of time spent at plateaus between levels.

I take your point about wanting two clerics in the late stages of the game, but why not just take two cleric multiclasses and have two clerics throughout the entire game? With the ever-present bard and all the spell buffs you have available, the multiclasses don't actually lose a lot of mulching power.
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Old 10-30-2005, 01:18 AM   #19
krunchyfrogg
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Just a question on the earlier "Appendix" of your post, NobleNick:

Why are you comparing level 17 as a Fighter to a dualled 13 Fighter?

BTW, a grandmaster has an extra 1/2 ApR over a specialist, not a whole extra attack as you stated.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:48 AM   #20
ister
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Not so. The manual says that it's an extra half apr, but when you get to GM you'll see that it's a full extra apr. The manual is wrong here.
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