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Old 11-23-2004, 04:51 PM   #11
Thoran
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The blade is only relevant if the combatants are evenly matched in skill, if not then the more skilled will win the majority of engagements regardless of weapon. The idea that the Samurai were somehow "More fit" than their western counterparts is baloney, the martial tradition in Europe would field men easily as capable in single combat as the Samurai.

And if it comes to weapons, don't let the Katana worshipers give you an unrealistic view of the subject, Katana's were indeed wonderful weapons, but experts feel there were Western blades that matched them in craftsmanship... additionaly the western Knight had a RANGE of well crafted blades to choose from depending on his opponent.

For those who imagine a Samurai slicing and dicing a Knight with his much faster and lighter Katana, here's a few tidbits.

The contemporary european blades were somewhat longer than the katana, but weighed about the same, contemporary european blades also had dual edges and a hilt and pommel that were both employed during combat... the range of attacks available to a European knight were numerous.

The contemporary european knight was also taller than the average Samurai, longer blade reach plus longer arm reach would put the Samurai at a physical disadvantage.

For those who imagine the Katana "cutting through" a long sword... it would never happen, it could probably mark the european blade (who's edge wasn't quite as hard as the Katana's), but that wouldn't really alter the effectiveness of it.

Additionally there's armor to consider, the Katana wasn't a wonder weapon, and a Samurai wielding one would have had a VERY hard time with a Knight in full plate (Western armor surpassed anything the Japanese had, a distinct advantage). The likely result of a katana strike against full plate would be a chipped katana (the edge was exceeding sharp, but also quite brittle). Additionally the Knight may have had the excellent Kite shield at his disposal, another tool that the Samurai would have been tested by (never having faced one in his homeland)

So is the Katana a great weapon... absolutely, a killing machine wielded in skilled hands against lightly armored opponents. Is it "better" than western blades? Well... in that narrow field I'd say generally yes, but there is no perfect blade. There are western designs for a WIDE variety of fighting conditions, with blade quality that meets or exceeds anything available in Japan (Damascus and Toledo come to mind as mentioned earlier)

Who'd win... the Katana wielding samurai in painted overlapping plates or the Sword and Shield wearing Knight in Maile or Plate?

Who knows, there's too much we've lost over the years to truly know the capabilities of these foes, but I'll go back in time to set up the fight if you all will chip in for the time machine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-23-2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]
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Old 11-23-2004, 07:17 PM   #12
Malthaussen
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I believe the original poster wondered "who would win" if both antogonists were unarmored... so the knight's superior Oven of Honor is immaterial to this question.

Everything I have read indicates that the western knight employed little finesse in his attacks. Whatever weapon he used, he essentially just bashed away until he wore down his opponent. Fully-armored knights rarely killed one another, due both to the fact that an enemy was worth more as ransom-bait and that their armor made them extremely hard to kill. Only peasants, who weren't eligble to receive ransoms and didn't play by the rules to begin with, killed many knights in battle.

In reference to breaking points and weapons quality, remember that force is the product of mass but the square of velocity. A cloth-yard shaft weighs virtually nothing, but can punch through the finest plate at 100 yards. Because the katana is lighter than the longsword, and because the samurai's training focussed on speed, not smashing, the katana is more than likely to defeat the longsword, other things being equal. It is also true that the average katana was of quality far superior to the average longsword; while there were European blades comparable to the "katana of 14,000 folds," they were outstanding blades, not the average knight-killer.

In point of honor, both samurai and knight were bloody insane, and would fight beyond any rationality. Just read Barbara Tuchman's description of King Sancho (in A Distant Mirror) if you don't believe me.

In an unarmored match between a knight and samurai, the latter would probably win most of the time, because knights were not accustomed to fighting without armor, whereas samurai were. Incidentally, I have never seen any reference that suggested that knights "parried" very much, and all one has to do is try to parry with a 4 lb longsword to discover that it is a non-trivial exercise. Knights relied on their armor and shield to defeat their opponent's blows, not the interposition of their weapon.

A question you might ask yourselves: if the armored knight was the acme of the foot soldier, why were rapiers and foils developed? Why did an unarmored style emerge in the Renaissance? A good man with a foil could beat an armored knight, because he could put his point in a vulnerable spot, and was light enough to dance away from the knight's smashes.

-- Mal
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Old 11-23-2004, 07:29 PM   #13
Ilander
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...force is the product of mass and acceleration.

Kinetic Energy is .5 times the product of mass and velocity squared

Momentum is the product of mass and velocity

Impulse is the product of Force and change in time

Pressure is the product of Force and Area
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Old 11-23-2004, 07:57 PM   #14
Kakero
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I have a katana and a wakizashi. I can tell you that it is very sharp. sharp enough to make my wrist bleed by just gently pressing it.

I have no experience in using a western type swords. So If a knight vs a samurai I'm not sure who will win. It depends on their fighting skill I guess.

However, in the anime Samurai X. it shows that Kenshee won fights against people who wield western swords. so what does that tell you? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:12 PM   #15
Ilander
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That anime is biased toward eastern influences?
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:17 PM   #16
robertthebard
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With some experience with both weapons, I can tell you that the Katana is a much lighter and easier to wield weapon, and the idea of parrying with a long sword, against an opponent wielding a similar weapon, or any weapon for that matter, is best left to NWN's. I haven't really tried, but I carried one around in the Ren Fair a couple of years ago, and they get heavy. You could concievably carry the Katana around for days, and any weapon that can cut through silk by the weight of the silk alone, is a force to be reckoned with. Uh, in case no one got that, I'd say the Katana was the superior weapon, as for who'd win, couldn't begin to tell you. I've seen unarmed opponents win battles against much larger armed opponents. It is impossible to say.
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:19 PM   #17
Malthaussen
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Ummm... I believe the equation is f= mv2. That is, force = mass times velocity squared.

Thus, increase in velocity has a larger impact on force (pardon the pun) than does increase in mass.

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Old 11-23-2004, 08:24 PM   #18
Malthaussen
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As for longswords vs katanas, I have seen and hefted both. The centre of gravity of a longsword is all in the blade, that is why it is not suitable for parrying. A rapier, which actually doesn't weigh much less than a longsword (about 3 vs 4 pounds) is easy to parry with because the balance is in the hilt. I suppose a katana would be more easy to parry with than a longsword as well, but the style militates against that.

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Old 11-23-2004, 09:10 PM   #19
Niadh
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For the people saying a katana was better quality, that is saying that a lords weapon is better than a commoners. A knight was a noble and would have his sword commisioned by a highly skilled blacksmith, who would also fold the metal. The difference was that a katana was folded more times to try spread the higher quality metals better due to Japan's lacking of higher quality metals while western areas had better quality in general. If we compare average to average, give the samuri a bo and the knight a dirk.
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:44 PM   #20
Malthaussen
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I disagree. I have seen and hefted both katanas and longswords, and the quality of the former is far superior to the latter. And so far as I recall (it has been awhile) the typical, run-of-the-mill longsword (not damascened or made in Toledo) was NOT folded. That is precisely why the distinction of "damascened" was made. Since longswords were only made for knights and nobility, as katanas were also, your claim that it is comparing a "commoner's" weapon to a lord's doesn't hold water.

Bo versus dirk? Give me the bo every time. Heck, I'll take a bo over a longsword (although I'd rather have a quarterstaff).

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