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Old 08-27-2004, 11:08 PM   #1
Nerull
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Warning: Long Post

Okay, I have been working on a campaign for a while where the two forces in opposition are Order and Chaos (instead of the prevalent Good against Evil that is so common). However, the more I try to get a grasp on this, the more muddled things get. I am going to throw this out here, mainly because I want some opinions/feedback/guidance/whatever on this subject.

One of the things that has troubled me from the beginning of this project is the idea that is prevalent pretty much everywhere of Order being "good" (or at least being the better alternative) while Chaos is "evil" (or at least the worse alternative). The more I was thinking about it, the more I wanted to cast the situation in a more even light. However, I kept searching for no avail for some examples of that situation. It seems that Order always comes out smelling like roses for the most part, while Chaos always gets the bad rap. Also, Order always seems to be cast in a "creative" light, while chaos is depicted in a "destructive" light; I found that a bit hard to grasp, considering that creation involves change.

This semester, I am taking a mythology class, and I brought the situation up to the instructor. His answer gives me some insight into the dilemma. From what he was stating, pretty much most of the myths about creation describes some dark, chaotic state that existed before the universe, then the universe came into being (i.e. order was established). He stated that it is human nature to cast things in the "good/right/best vs. evil/wrong/worst" conflict, thus its prevalence in good vs. evil stories in the various tales. Since the universe would be represented by order, the use of chaos and chaos magic would have a destructive effect on the natural order (i.e. compromising the universe and threatening to destroy it). Thus, this explains why chaos is generally depicted as "evil" and "destructive". By the same token, since the universe was created by imposing order on the chaos, order gets the "creative" tag.

I could, of course, really muck things up by reversing the roles (the universe started out in an orderly, unchanging tedium, then chaos entered the picture and changed all of that). But, I have to sell this to the players in the campaign, and I think that they will have an easier time of "order = good" and "chaos = evil". Thus, I am willing to go this route.

However, this opens a whole can of worms as far as implementing this in the game. I found a great supplement by Mongoose Publishing called "The Quintessential Chaos Mage" that has been a great help. Here, the chaos mage is pretty much defined in the destructive light. However, I will list out the main areas of power that they have, and then state my issues.

What chaos mages can do:
  • direct damage effects (self-explanatory)
  • domination effects (all matters of mind control and mind alterations)
  • materialization effects (creation of objects and construct creatures (and illusions, too), but all of limited duration)
  • movement effects (both transportation and drawing uncontrolled creatures there)
  • transformation effects (includes both body alterations and enhancing abilities)
What chaos mages cannot do:
  • healing of any sort
  • divinations of any sort
  • summoning spells (other than essentially gating in uncontrolled creatures)
My problems with this? Chaos controlling minds (they describe it as "destroying free will")? Wouldn't this be an order effect? Same thing with non-illusion materializations. And why wouldn't chaos mages use divinations (explanation in book is "they are not interested in the current status quo"...huh?). And why would summonings be bad if they are summoning chaotic creatures? And enhancing abilities (i.e. the equivalent of the Magic Weapon spells, etc.) do not make sense in my mind; they are enhancing the natural abilities of the object. The rest all makes sense. The question is how to change all of this and still balance the class.

Then, on the other side of this, what would an order mage look like? Here's what I have so far:

What they can do:
  • Healing: makes sense, except for raising the dead (that would disrupt the natural order). They are restoring the body's natural order
  • Movement: makes sense that both types of mages can travel around
  • Mind control: makes a lot of sense for order, but mind alterations (like Feeblemind, Confusion, etc.) belong with the chaos mage
  • Enhancements: All of the upgrade spells (Strength, etc.) belong with this guy, not the chaos side
  • Divinations: I think both should have this
  • Summonings: both types of mages should have this
You could also add creation effects here as well, if you buy the "order created the universe" idea. However, no ability to directly damage the opponent, or the ability to alter the body or mind.

However, the whole "universe = order" concept opens a whole new can of worms in this regard. I was thinking about having brown mages (that draw power from nature). However, if the order guys are representing the protection of the universe, then they encompass this area, too. This means they could potentially pick up much of the stuff druids do in regular D&D as well. This is NOT a good idea, as the order mage would be super-dominant. Thus, this means having to split off the "nature" guys from the "order" guys, but then you essentially have two order groups against the chaos guys. The alternative is to ignore nature magic entirely (just have order vs. chaos).

On top of all of this, I am having some difficulty with the roles of an order vs. chaos idea and its effects on society. What would life be like for people without any gods or any other personifications of order or chaos. One of the things my instructor touched on in my conversation is the idea that people "personalize" the deities so that they are easier for them to comprehend and associate with them; would the various extraplanar entities fill this void in this case? Maybe they would not actually grant divine power, but still would hold some sort of religious significance for mortals. Also, where do souls go when they die in this setting? I would think that order would recycle (i.e. reincarnation), as that makes sense that it would be self-sustaining in that regard. However, what happens to chaos affiliated people when they die? Maybe their souls are destroyed, but how would that be an incentive? Lots of questions to answer.

Anyway, like I stated, I am just looking for feedback in this area. Thanks in advance for your patience with this long post.
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Old 08-28-2004, 12:23 AM   #2
Ilander
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I think that the second law of Thermodynamics states that no matter what is done to a system, the entropy (amount of chaos) always increases...so even the "orderly" adds chaos to the universe....
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Old 08-28-2004, 12:52 AM   #3
Gabrielles blades
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dont think chaos or order should have specific abilities that the other side wont have. After all the fanatics of order or chaos will be maintain their side by any means necessary.

the nature of the universe any of ourself is that we need chaos to survive or change/grow. Without it the species would have never evolved.

So, basically....i think you might want to focus more on the political mindsets involved with chaos or order.
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Old 08-28-2004, 01:00 AM   #4
Encard
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Interesting.

Before making any comments on just how you might want to consider working these mages, I feel I should mention that actually, Order vs. Chaos is a fairly common theme in fantasy. A good example of this would be many of Michael Moorcock's books, the best probably being the Elric saga... These were, iirc, actually the inspiration for the D&D alignment system.

Also, although in you're correct that in many cases order has been linked to good and chaos to evil, there have also been a good number of cases I've seen where, in literature, RPGs, or otherwise, it's been the opposite way around. This seems to be particularly true among newer fantasy works, although that may be just my imagination. Nonetheless, evil empire vs. noble barbarians, tyrannyical dictatorship vs. freedom-loving woodsmen, and other such things have been used quite a bit, so the idea is unlikely to be totally unfamiliar to your players.

What your mythology teacher said sounds logical... On the other hand, once again, the flip side is definitely not uncommon. Order has often, in fantasy, been portrayed as a force of stagnation and sloth, while chaos has often been portrayed as the driving force behind creativity, progressive thinking, and freedom.

Now, hmm... You're using a Mongoose supplement, I see. I haven't had the opportunity to personally look at this one, I'd suggest being a bit wary of it. Mongoose seemes to have a reputation, at least somewhat deserved from what I've seen, for making moderately to highly unbalanced supplements. Now, let's see, a few comments...

Quote:
direct damage effects (self-explanatory)
Makes sense, I think. I assume that by direct damage, you mean primarily fire- and energy-based magic? I ask because, while those sorts of affects work well with the chaos = destructive, some other types seem to be a bit less easy to fit in, the primary one being cold. Now, since cold is the absence of heat, and more heat generally, from what I remember, increases the randomness of a system, cold would actually appear to be more appropriate to order magic than to chaos.

Quote:
domination effects (all matters of mind control and mind alterations)
I can see why this would seem odd, and to a degree it does. However, it mainly depends on how one looks at it. Within the context of the mind, order is presumably a patterned system of thought. Now, using chaos purely as a force of destruction, it makes sense that it could be used to break the will of the subject; after all, why would order be used to destroy an already-ordered system? If that's all that chaos is, however, then it seems as though it might take both types of magic to Dominate a target rather than simply inflicting a Confusion (or similar) effect on them. On the other hand, if chaos can also encompass change, then it makes sense that it could be used to break the subject's will and then manipulate it into the new, desired form. It also works in the sense that chaos can be seen as shifting from the norm; the norm being the subject's normal thought process, a Dominate (or other mind-altering) effect would obviously be a shift. it all depends on how you'd rather look at it.

Quote:
materialization effects (creation of objects and construct creatures (and illusions, too), but all of limited duration)
Hmm. Illusions make sense for this, as they are often considered to be formed, at least in part, by manipulating light, and light, being energy, is often seen as the domain of chaos. Not necessarily for evil chaos (although that often involves fire, which of course produces light), but, nonetheless. The creation of actual physical things, however, wouldn't work too well if you gave order the province of being the patron of creation.

Quote:
transformation effects (includes both body alterations and enhancing abilities)
Seems moderately odd that chaos has the ability to enhance abilities. After all, making things work better rather than worse would seem to be more the province of order than chaos. Of course, unnatural alterations do seem like they might work well for chaos.

Quote:
healing of any sort
No actual HP healing makes sense, more or less. However, something that should be remembered is that if chaos can be used for destruction, it could presumably be used to destroy such things as poisons and diseases.

Quote:
divinations of any sort
Odd. Temproal divination often seems to be characterized as looking into myriad possible futures, and the uncertainty there would seem like a natural thing for chaos to deal with. The same for many divinations dealing with other beings, since most things' actions and beliefs are never completely certain. I suppose it would make sense for order magic to function by narrowing down possibilities, or such, but chaos does indeed seem to also make sense.

Quote:
summoning spells (other than essentially gating in uncontrolled creatures)
This would make sense if you removes chaos being able to use Dominate-type magic. However, as they can do that, it seems odd that they can't control what they summon.


Hmm. Now, it's a bit difficult to give advice on rebalancing without knowing the exact parameters. However, what might work:
- Damage spells: remove spells that do cold or force damage, as both would seem more suited to order than to chaos, at least in my opinion. Necromantic magic can work for either order or chaos, as it can either seen as the destructiona dn dispersion of life (chaos), or the formation of perfect order that pushes out the energy needed to sustain life (order).
- Remove ability enchancement spells
- Remove pure creation affects
- Add divination, cure poison/disease type spells, and summoning.
I'm unsure of just how extensive their abilities in the areas I suggested removing are, so I can't say for sure whether that's balanced or not... It may be necessary to give them some other bonus, such as extra damage on attack spells. Another option, which would be particularly necessary I think if removing their ability to Dominate, would be to enlarge their available spells... Magic that harmfully affects die rolls, or that stirs up the surroundings (i.e. by creating a storm) could work.

Order seems about right... I'm curious as to what these classes have for BAB/saves/etc, though. If the order mage uses wizard BAB and saves, then they'll need some rather powerful summoning and other abilities to do much good, without damage spells. It might make sense to allow them access to a few cold and force based spells, in that case.

I'd suggest against using nature-mages in an Order vs. Chaos setting, unless they were supposed to represent Neutrality. In that case it might work... Otherwise, though, I think it'd just become confusing. I'll note, however, that both sides would stand to pick up druid spells. After all, druids have magic that falls into both order and chaos affect categories.

Now, the roles of order and chaos in common life... That depends, lots of options. I wouldn't be at all surprised if powerful outsiders stepped in, as you said... There's certainly a great number of them around that wouldn't mind being venerated as deities or near-deities. If you wanted to keep an evil theme for chaos, just using werful denizens of the Abyss, the Far Realms, and possibly Limbo would work... Otherwise you could also incorporate chaotic-aligned celestials of various types. For order you could use lawful-aligned celestials if you wanted to maintain the order = good thing, or also incporporate other things like Baatezu.

Without actual deities, soulds could go anywhere after death... it's perfectly possible that reincarnation works in both cases, or in neither. Souls might be destroyed, or sent to an endless plain to sit for eternity, or harvested by these quasi-deified outsiders for various purposes (such as being transformed into lesser demons or larvae, for example). If you want to link chaos to destruction, it might make sense to have chaotic souls be destroyed... How chaotic would a person have to be, however? Would having a chaotic alignment be enough, or...? On the other hand, not sure why orderly souls would be reincarnated. It seems more likely that they'd be built on in some way, perhaps being transformed into lawful-aligned outsider after death, or sent to some higher plane of existence (whether in the normal D&D cosmology or not).

Speaking of which, how are you thinking of dealing with the alignment system?

Hmm... Long post. I hope I didn't manage to get too confused while writing it.

EDIT: Ah, yes... I'd suggest reading some books by L.E. Modesitt, since he also focuses heavily on chaos and order. The White Order and The Colors of Chaos are particularly good in this regard.

[ 08-28-2004, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Encard ]
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Old 08-28-2004, 01:54 AM   #5
Yorick
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Chaos and order need each other. Without one, the other cannot be.

I think also, they intertwine. Both can be good and positive, and both destructive and negative.

Take the ocean. The waves fall in seemingly chaotic random ways, yet are actually ordered by the tide, and by longer term ordered patterns of mass movement around the globe. Chaos in that case, exists within order. Yet the entire galaxy, though consisting of planets and suns that revolve around each other in ordered fashion, are moving outward in a chaotic fashion - that contains some order, due to the concept of expansion.

I see both as being inseperable. Parts of the same thing. Human behaviour can be random, and chaotic, yet all behaviour is part of ordered causes and functionality.

I think.....
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Old 08-28-2004, 05:11 AM   #6
Harkoliar
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i agree with yorick
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Old 08-28-2004, 08:30 AM   #7
Hivetyrant
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Chaos and order need each other. Without one, the other cannot be.

I think also, they intertwine. Both can be good and positive, and both destructive and negative.

Take the ocean. The waves fall in seemingly chaotic random ways, yet are actually ordered by the tide, and by longer term ordered patterns of mass movement around the globe. Chaos in that case, exists within order. Yet the entire galaxy, though consisting of planets and suns that revolve around each other in ordered fashion, are moving outward in a chaotic fashion - that contains some order, due to the concept of expansion.

I see both as being inseperable. Parts of the same thing. Human behaviour can be random, and chaotic, yet all behaviour is part of ordered causes and functionality.

I think.....
I totaly agree, Encard made some good points though.
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:07 AM   #8
Stratos
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First a small question:
In your campaign, Nerull, will there be someone who worships Neutrality and Balance, like an ancient sect or something? You could create some interresting mythology with that.

On the order vs. chaos thing; when we think about chaos=evil, we usually think about some unwashed horde of evil-doers fighting against some noble warriors, but chaos can work in much more subtle ways in a society.

And finally, have you played Ultima VII, part 2: The Serpents Isle? In it there was something similar to what you described about worshiping Chaos and Order. During the course of the game, you found old ruins from two different civilizations, one worshiping Order and the other Chaos, and constantly waged war with each other. It's been a long time ago since I played the game, but I don't think either side were described as better than the other.
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Old 08-28-2004, 01:45 PM   #9
Nerull
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Hmmm...good posts.

I have read some of Modesitt's stuff, along with the Elric Saga. In both, however, there is the underlying idea that chaos is something to be fought against. Thus my comments about order=good and chaos=evil.

I was envisioning the brown mages as neutrality/balance, but the more I look at it the less they are needed. Besides, once you look at it as order=creative/maintaining the universe, it kind of makes them an odd fit.

Yes, there are some newer authors that have switched the roles, but I am looking at it from a grand scale. There will probably be individual areas in the campaign where they are reversed (law has completely dominated an area and grown corrupt, while chaos seeks to throw down the corruption and decadence and bring freedom). However, it makes more sense if there was chaos in the beginning of creation, then order causing the universe to be created, rather than the other way around.

I was planning on both to have wizard BAB, etc. The chaos mage presented in the supplement is like that, so it would make sense to give the other guys the same thing. However, after posting, I considered giving the order mages force effects, as it makes sense. The direct damaging effects for chaos mages are ALL types (fire, acid, electricity, cold, sonic, and force). I would probably leave them cold (though I could see the argument for taking it away) but take away the force effects. However, I would argue against giving order mages necromancy, at least the ones that do not counter undead. Most of the things I've seen involving negative energy and undead point to it being a disruption of the natural order, so this makes a good add to the chaos mage. I think both sides should have mind controlling effects, as well as summoning abilities and divinations.

As far as the chaos mage in the supplement, he is very powerful, but he is the "candle burning brighter" (their powers cause damage to his own body, and eventually destroy them). They have no spell levels, no casting limits, nothing of the sort. Instead, you choose a base effect (for example, doing 1d8 damage per level, or controlling the person's mind), and that sets a base DC. Then, you add the other stuff to the spell (a range and duration, etc.) and that adjusts the DC. Then, you make a level check against the DC, and if you succeed, then the spell is cast (otherwise it fails). However, for every 5 full DC (i.e. round down fractions) you take a point of damage (nonlethal if you succeed in the check, lethal if you do not). You can cast spells over and over until you run out of HP, and can try any power of effect (though the more you try to do, the more chance it blows up in your face). And, if you roll a 1 on the check, there is a possibility of taking a step on a path of chaos (permanent changes to the caster's body and/or mind, some beneficial but mostly detrimental). Each step on the path gets worse and worse, until the character is destroyed forever after 10 steps. Is that too powerful for a chaos mage in this campaign? And what would be a good match on the order side?

I'm struck by the fact that the two classes, if you go this way with it, resemble the old concept of good vs. evil clerics, in the earlier D&D editions. Good guys use positive energy (healing, buffing the party, etc.) while evil guys use negative energy (cause wounds, controlling undead, spells hurting others, etc.).

I hadn't really thought of it, but it would make sense that when people die, they end up being "promoted" to an order or chaos position among the extraplanar beings. In fact, I could also see the "reincarnation" aspect being for those who either reject both sides or are not dedicated enough (i.e. the soul has nowhere to go, so it just comes back in another body). Thus, even though I see the two casters drawing their power from the philosophies of order and chaos, the extraplanar entities would still have a strong influence. However, I am planning to completely revamp the order and chaos entities, mainly due to the fact that most of the extraplanar entities in the D&D setting are aimed at a good vs. evil mentality. You can see this with the celestials and fiends. Yes, you have lawful and chaotic versions of both, and there is even a war between the lawful and chaotic fiends, but those aspects are not anywhere near as defined as the good vs. evil aspect. The Blood War between demons and devils is about which version of evil is better (organized vs. disorganized), but it is still about evil.

All in all, good posts. I have quite a bit of consideration to do on this.
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Old 09-04-2004, 10:11 PM   #10
Lucern
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Nerull, if you're still thinking this through, I have a different perspective for you. I'm an anthropology student: bear with me lol. You might find it worthwhile to get through this long post though.

You can assign good/evil to a lot of things, because they're self-defined and rather arbitrary notions that change from culture to culture (or don't even exist for some).

Chaos and Order are somewhat less arbitrary, but still have a healthy dose of self-definition as everyone above has demonstrated. I think I can show you how chaos can actually be a side you could root for in a struggle against order, if you were to dichotomize the two and assign groups to one or the other.

Power is the ability to make binding decisions for another person, be it on a battlefield or a feudal farm.

Order has heirarchical structures, as most human groups have had since the beginning of agriculture (and possibly before, but it intensified with agriculture). So people within these structures generally have a specialized job and know their place in the pecking order. In a number of ways, people hold power over other people. A blacksmith can decide he doesn't want to make horseshoes for you, but does not have that choice if his lord asks the same. They are free to use that power in a good or evil way. Ideally in our society people won't abuse their power, but we know this is not always the case.

Because of the highly specialized division of labor and the overall organization of military, commercial, and social order in cities, counties, and monarchies, Order has many advantages over Chaos. They have more soldiers and can train them faster and more efficiently. They have better arms, armor, and supply structure. If positions are given by merit, they can even have more effective leaders on the battlefield and on the throne. They are technologically superior over chaos, because they have individuals who are specialized and have places to store knowledge. Order grows and expands its model of control geographically and among different groups. 'Barbarians' are those outside of the system, not yet dominated by it.

In this dichotomy, chaos is the resistance to hierarchical structure. Within the realm of Order dissidents and anarchists challenge the system to change, sometimes through violent resistance. Within order, those on the bottom have the least to lose and the most to gain from such upheaval. The artistocrats of Order have the most incentive for the system to maintain itself and expand. An Order vs Chaos theme could play out within a single kingdom or empire.

'Chaos' also exists outside of the realms of order. Groups of humanoids would have mostly isolated villages that might have to band together for protection against an organized oppressor. If these groups have a tendency towards what you might describe as 'evil', then these might be just as hierarchical and potentially cruel as the systems of Order. Others live without governance, without the power structures (or at least local governance and a weak power structure). They live a more egalitarian existence, which promotes peace and shuns violence. Since nobody holds the power in such a society, people could only look after themselves, but instead have a vested interest in sharing property and work with others. There wouldn't have to be (though there could still be) equality destroying classifications based on gender, race, or class. Age, however, is often acknowledged as somewhat hierarchical, since elders are regularly placed in positions of respect. People are free to do as they will. Law is replaced with cultural notions of morality unique to each group and maintained through shame or the threat of isolation from the community. They have (relative) egalitarianism, a unique value structure, and individual autonomy to lose when threatened by Order, and its something people have died trying to protect for millenia. There is still a loose structure here, but it is a voluntary one and not power-based.

Such 'autonomous collectives' (remember Monty Python? lol), would be the most in need of brave and powerful heroes to protect them from the armies of order. People know how to hunt and/or gather or keep small fields of crops, and generally share this work. There are a few people who have wholly different jobs in these societies: leaders and religious figures. Leaders are considered 'first among equals' in many of these groups, and are not leaders for life in many cases. Religious figures are usually trained from a young age in the secrets of their work, usually involving healing and performing rituals. This is, of course, where the clerics and wizards classes come in. Warriors could be anyone in the village (especially hunters), and rogue classes come from outside the village structure (except for scouts and bards)

You would also have to consider the range of skills and equipment that would be appropriate for such a community, but it presents a fun setting for a campaign that's far outside of 'good' and 'evil'. Order does evil in its imperialist expansion, but it does good in its ability to protect its citizens. Less structured communities can do 'good' with its egalitarianism and free will, but must 'do evil' to protect itself from the threat of Order just to survive.

If order still seems wholly good to you, it's because our world is overwhelmingly like my description of Order, and the parts of it that weren't like that were made to conform in the last few thousand years. Think Romans, think French, British, and Spanish colonialism, think Aztecs and their swift rise and fall as an empire, and think of the Native Americans after the US manifested its 'destiny'. Still think of Chaos as orcish barbarians knocking down the gate? Look up the Mundurucu of the Amazon, the Dani of Africa, or the Aymara of the Peruvian/Bolivian highlands. Thousands of such groups remain and hold on to some degree of their heritage. Order and Chaos can take any form you can imagine, in any degree of extremity towards either Chaos or Order. Just talking about this makes me want to play in such a campaign! The heroes would certainly need epic and heroic deeds to maintain their way of life against such adversity.
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