Illinois Death Row Clemency

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by MagiK: It is one thing to kill innocent men and women in the streets and quite another to execute a criminal.

That's the whole point- to them the people in question are not innocent, to the punishers anyway.

[ 01-13-2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Talthyr Malkaviel ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: but I would say that the presence of the death penalty merely encourages violent crime in other people.

Don't suppose you have any concrete proof of this? or even a foundation that you can print? To me it looks like a completely baseless statement.. [/QUOTE]I know what you're saying MagiK, but what kind of proof what satisfy you? I can hardly come up with a statistic for this one. What I am saying is fairly well supported by decent logic though. The state defines for people who live in what is right and what is wrong. The American justice system gives out the message that it is not wrong to kill people in some circumstances, that lowers the value people put on life within the US. Committing violent crime becomes less of a big deal as the state sanctions the use of violence to solve your problems. Do you see what I'm getting at? It may seem like a load of hippy, wishy washy, nonsense, but If you can come up with a reason for why that logic is flawed then by all means be my guest.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: but I would say that the presence of the death penalty merely encourages violent crime in other people.

Don't suppose you have any concrete proof of this? or even a foundation that you can print? To me it looks like a completely baseless statement.. [/QUOTE]I know what you're saying MagiK, but what kind of proof what satisfy you? I can hardly come up with a statistic for this one. What I am saying is fairly well supported by decent logic though. The state defines for people who live in what is right and what is wrong. The American justice system gives out the message that it is not wrong to kill people in some circumstances, that lowers the value people put on life within the US. Committing violent crime becomes less of a big deal as the state sanctions the use of violence to solve your problems. Do you see what I'm getting at? It may seem like a load of hippy, wishy washy, nonsense, but If you can come up with a reason for why that logic is flawed then by all means be my guest.[/QUOTE]I wish I could wash my hippy shirt.
But more seriously- I agree with you Mr McSprout.
As death is used in more and more circumstances, as punishment, as an allowable revenge, and also just a more regular occurence sadly, less worth seems to be placed on a life.

On a somewhat related note, the death penalty is hardly the best deterrent, during the period of the Bloody Code in English history when people were publicly hanged it did not deter anyone, merely provided to some a literal day out for the average family.
By degrading life, by ending it for the smallest of crimes, people merely grew accustomed to this- it deterred no one.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: So you don't want to try and stop other people doing this kind of thing, you just want to kill people once they've done it? It has been proven time and time again that killing people in retaliation for their crimes does not act as an effective deterrant. The only thing that truly does act as an effective deterrant against violent crime is social inclusion. People commit crimes like these because they don't have the same value of human life as a law abiding person - they believe that human life is not as important as fulfilling their own goals. Until we have a society that actually does value human life as paramount, in everything it does, then we won't have a society that can effectivly discourage the use of violence as a means to an end. By consitutionally favoring the use of violence to solve your problems (through the death penalty) the state is not helping to stop violent crime. It is encouraging it.

the problem with this statement is that many of the perpetrators (admittedly not all) have some severe mental illnesses, some cannot be treated, inclusion in society does nothing to treat them as they're behavior has little to do with a feeling of exclusion, but rather something wrong upstairs, look at Dahmer and Bundy for prime examples (thank you for bringing them up Cerek) society is better off with these types completely out of the picture, the only prison *I* know of that claimed to never have a break out was Alcatraz, and even that eventually had one, if a member of my family was killed by such a sociopath I would feel much better knowing that there is no chance he could ever escape confinement, even briefly, to repeat his crimes on another human being.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Yorick: Americans who support the death penalty: How is your view different from a Saudi Arabian who believes stoning a woman for adultery is right, just, fair and an apt deterrant?.[/i]

Degrees of separation.

There are many crimes, but only a tiny few are inconsistant with the continued life of the criminal, so while I support the death penalty, I only support it in certain instances.

A child molester who kills the victims to hide the evidence of their crime is deserving of the death penalty, not just as a deterrant to others, but as insurance that they can't do it again.

A woman who cheats on her husband doesn't deserver the death penalty, especially when similar actions by her husband would be acceptable or at worst punished by a slap on the wrist. Not only an over-punishment for the crime, but an injustice in the sentance based on the person's sex. Even worse that she could be punished in this manner for being the victim of a rape.

In either case, I wouldn't advocate stoning.

[Timber Loftis]

Just so we don't get derailed with misunderstandings here:
In the good ole US of A, execution is only available as a punishment for
1. Murder that is
2. Premeditated, and in most instances
3. Unusually banal or egregious.

Crimes in the heat of passion, accidental killing, manslaughter - none of these get you the death penalty. With the notable exception being felony murder - but that's a bit complicated for me to explain herein.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Just so we don't get derailed with misunderstandings here: In the good ole US of A, execution is only available as a punishment for 1. Murder that is 2. Premeditated, and in most instances 3. Unusually banal or egregious. Crimes in the heat of passion, accidental killing, manslaughter - none of these get you the death penalty. With the notable exception being felony murder - but that's a bit complicated for me to explain herein.

Also for Treason. And if I recall, aren't there some provision under federal law for big time drug smugglers as well?

[Timber Loftis]

I think you're right on treason, but not on drugs. Mandatory minimums for drug-related crimes are rather draconian, but I don't think you can be executed (which I still note is a form of MURDER, despite MagiK's ability to cut-and-paste the entirety of the OED) for things that are simply related to [img]graemlins/bonghit.gif[/img]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Yorick: I think an interesting issue is that America has no hesitation in applying it's values of human rights and morality to someplace like China and Iraq, but has a big problem when other nations apply their morality to America.

Couldn't agree more here. I think we poke our noses over other peoples fences way too often. Though America's campain for "democray, human rights, and the betterment of all" is intended to make the world a better place, who are we to dictate to everyone else what is good for them. Not all solutions are for all problems in all situations. Our solutions work for us.

Originally posted by Yorick: Americans who support the death penalty: How is your view different from a Saudi Arabian who believes stoning a woman for adultery is right, just, fair and an apt deterrant?

Same way I justify war. I'ld really rather not, but I'll execute it if I have to.

Originally posted by Yorick: The issue is not whether you believe it's right or not - they believe they are right also. The issue is, the rest of the western world has a huge problem with the punishment.

I refer to your above paragraph and my agreement.

Originally posted by Yorick: I for one see NO DIFFERENCE between murder and execution. Taking a life, is taking a life. In executing, the state becomes a murderer. Must you be a monster to punish a monster? Can you not see that in repaying evil for evil you become evil? The issue is not what the criminal gets, but what does society become. Does the criminal deserve death? YES. Should the criminal die? YES. Is their life forfeit for taking another life? YES Should society become a murderer to punish them? NO NO NO NO NO. I'll say it again. The issue is not the punishment the criminal receives - however just or unjust that may be - but what society becomes when punishing them. What are you becoming? As part of the nation, you are as guilty as the executioner of taking human life. Of ending a humans existence. Now. What if there's a mistake? Just say that the human you killed is innocent.

Neitche: Beware how long you star into the Abyss, for it long stares back at you.

Tolkien (Gandalf): Many that live deserve death. Many that die deserve life. Can you give that to them? Be not so quick to deal out death in judgement, for not even the Wise can see all ends.

These are very difficult connundrums. I support capitol punishment, but wish there was no need for it. Mel mentioned in another thread to look into fixing the prison system, make it less cushy. I completely agree. But I disagree that life imprisonment has zero chance of ending an innocents life. Both end ones life quite effectively, for you can never get your life back. Obviously this is a very dodgy problem with no perfect solution - if there were, there would be no chance of 100 going free or one innocent's life being ruined.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Attalus: And, Yorick, killing isn't always murder. Sometimes it is justified.

If a lie is justified, does it suddenly become the truth?

Justification is not the issue. Of course it is justified. But if taking human life is wrong, then justification doesn't make it suddenly right.