Illinois Death Row Clemency

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Actually, Memnoch, the cost of keeping an inmate in prison for life is supposedly about 1/3 the cost of executing him. The reason being that the Death Penalty comes with an automatic appeal, which means a second trial.....which can - in turn - be appealed again if the same verdict is reached (although the second appeal is not automatic).

I firmly support the death penalty myself. There are some crimes that are just too heinous to allow the person to live and there are some criminals that are simply "unredeemable". Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and Charles Manson are just a few examples that spring to mind.

My biggest problem with life in prison are the many aforementioned "luxuries" prisoners are allowed to have in todays system. Recreation centers, big screen TV's, access to the internet, and various other "amenities" make our prisons more like a low-budget hotel than a Corrections Facility. I realize that losing one's freedom is harsh, but most career criminals have adjusted to that as an "occupational hazard". One argument against the death penalty is that it does not serve as a realistic deterrent to crime. That may be true, but life in prison is no more effective as a deterrent.

Personally, I believe that our entire prison system needs to remember that their primary function is to PUNISH people that have broken the laws of the land. Even in the early part of the last century, prisons were hard-core facilities that all but the most hardened criminal wanted to avoid. But in the 70's, the focus started to shift from punishment to rehabilitation. Granted, we should offer criminals a chance to redeem themselves when that is a realistic goal. But the sad fact is that many criminals have no intention of "changing their ways". Once they are released back into society, they will go back to committing the same crimes again.

The article quoted in the first post called for Bush to take a "moral stand". He has. His "moral stand" is that criminals will be punished and they will recieve the death penalty when they commit atrocious crimes against innocent victims.

As for the death penalty being ineffective and more expensive, that could easily be fixed. I agree with allowing an automatic appeal and I feel the criminal should be given a competent defense. But if he/she is found guilty a second time, then an execution date should be set immediately and should come within 1 year of the sentence being handed down. This would give the person adequate time to "get his affairs in order". It would also give any concerned person or group an adequate amount of time to review thier case for flaws or mistakes. However, if no reason has been found within 1 year, then the sentence should be carried out. No more "sitting on death row" for years and years and years. Once the punishment becomes more swift and certain, perhaps - just perhaps - it will become more of a deterrent.

[Timber Loftis]

If granting the Clemency is a miscarriage of justice, MagiK, then are you saying that in the states where there is no death penalty there is no justice?

[edit: And to correct the error, individual review hearings on these cases were done, rather extensively, over the last few months.]

Problem with the death penalty is % error. Error in a conviction is not so damaging when you can correct your error later and let the guy out. But, with death, you can never undo your screw-up.

Cerek's point about relative cost is well-taken. Death row inmates recieved guartanteed appeals - over and over again - much more costly than a lifetime in prison.

I'm a big believer in the notion that you should pay for your mistakes. The people who fight so hard to get the death penalty: overzealous prosecutors, demanding DA's and executives (literally bull-whipping the prosecutors into seeking the maximum on every case no matter how strong the evidence), and the jury - all have wronged an innocent wrongly-convicted person. But, how can we possibly make the culpable for their mistake.

You show me a certifying government official willing to sign a piece of paper forfeiting their life if the death sentence turns out to be in error, and I'll gladly support the penalty wholesale.

With our system the defendant gets rail-roaded. Now, not OJ - he's rich and can afford the good lawyers and the long fight. But, even in this "innocent until proven guilty" society the accused are so un-trusted by juries and the accusers (cops) are overwhelming trusted. I have seen three men go to jail for decades apiece when the only evidence against them (and their word) was the honest face of ONE police officer. No other evidence - no nothing. You've just got to see it to believe it. The state doesn't even have to try.

In such a system, the death penalty is one more stop on the railroad. What really irks me are the folks who get convinced to plead guilty and then still get the death penalty. Those cases are almost ALWAYS due to a lying prosecutor cheating someone who doesn't know the system.

Just some thoughts. Philosophically, I think some criminals deserve the death penalty - and we can argue of which ones of course. But, in practice I think the rate of error plus the gravity of error make the death penalty very difficult to implement.

[ 01-13-2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Attalus]

Sory, Memnoch, I don't see why "Better a hundred guilty go free than one innocent be executed" should receive the status of Holy Writ. What if those hundred guilty go out and kill just two more innocents? This is a cliche, and, IMHO, just plain wrong. Just like "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton was not a prophet. A bunch of liberals just think that he is.

[Yorick]

I think an interesting issue is that America has no hesitation in applying it's values of human rights and morality to someplace like China and Iraq, but has a big problem when other nations apply their morality to America.

Americans who support the death penalty: How is your view different from a Saudi Arabian who believes stoning a woman for adultery is right, just, fair and an apt deterrant?

The issue is not whether you believe it's right or not - they believe they are right also. The issue is, the rest of the western world has a huge problem with the punishment.

Try and view this objectively for one moment. Humour me. Remove your concepts of justice for just an instant, and try and look at how the west sees the practice.

How would you expect tribal cannibals to react when the rest of the world tells them their honourable tradition of eating their enemies is repulsive? THEY may not have a problem with it, but WE do. NO OTHER NATION IN THE WEST KILLS IT'S CITIZENS LIKE AMERICA. Saudi Arabia, China Iraq and America lead the world in numbers of citizens it's government kills.

That's heavy company.

I for one see NO DIFFERENCE between murder and execution. Taking a life, is taking a life. In executing, the state becomes a murderer. Must you be a monster to punish a monster?

Can you not see that in repaying evil for evil you become evil?

The issue is not what the criminal gets, but what does society become.

Does the criminal deserve death? YES.
Should the criminal die? YES.
Is their life forfeit for taking another life? YES
Should society become a murderer to punish them? NO NO NO NO NO.

I'll say it again.

The issue is not the punishment the criminal receives - however just or unjust that may be - but what society becomes when punishing them.

What are you becoming? As part of the nation, you are as guilty as the executioner of taking human life. Of ending a humans existence.

Now. What if there's a mistake? Just say that the human you killed is innocent.

[ 01-13-2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Timber Loftis]

Yorick, I agree and disagree with you. I find myself often conflicted on this issue.

Obvious logic tells us: If murder is illegal and wrong, then it is equally wrong for the state to do it. Murder is murder is murder. But, murder is not always wrong. Justified self defense murder = you walk. Logic simply does not always work to solve moral quandries.

Look, pure logic tells me that just because the sun has risen every day before in NO WAY PROVES OR LEADS TO THE CONCLUSION that the sun will rise tomorrow. This reason is why the scientific method, based upon the assumption that an experiment will come out the same way on reproduction and repetition, is logically flawed.

But, excuse me if I toss logic aside when it makes common sense - I'll work under the assumption that the sun WILL rise tomorrow, just in case.

Similarly, the logical syllogisms showing how the taking of life by the state is absolutely wrong simply do not work in all circumstances: some taking of life by the state can be justified - else we leave it unable to enter a war, etc.

[realbinky]

I often waver on this issue. I do think that this massive clemency grant is a mistake. If the justice system in that state has the death penalty, and that is the punishment they were given, who is HE to change it? I do admit that the justice system is flawed lately. There is a difference between redeemable and not criminals. The jails have come full swing from none are to all are, and acting as such. I think I'd support the death penalty 100% if I could know that the system worked better. As it is, I still favor it, but more at the 60% level. I have some qualms, I have some doubts, and who am I to say, but in the end, the TRULY heinous crimes deserve this punishment.

Yorick, I did think about it. I really did. Maybe it's my upbringing in the US where some states have the penalty, but whatever it is, I do after all, favor it, in certain cases. I think other countries are too easy on its criminals, how about that? I don't KNOW what's right, but I have to go with what I believe. Its not a position I take lightly, nor ignorantly.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Memnoch: Life in prison is just as bad as death from a punishment perspective IMO (though death is probably cheaper on the state, isn't it).

Stale bread, stagnant water, a damp and filthy cell, some rags and a pair of leg-irons aint that expensive [img]smile.gif[/img]

Would that American Prisons were like this Unfortunately they are not. Internet access, educational services and Cable TV cost a lot, not to mention the specialized diets they have to be fed, to meet their religious, and personal tastes.

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And Magik - My thoughts exactly. There seems to be an unsavoury amount of politics involved in this decision. Also, their lives are individual, as are their legal cases.

I am all for re-examining each case if there is evidence of bad process...but I am astounded at the magic wand wave used here in this case. [/QUOTE]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

He blamed “rogue cops,” zealous prosecutors, incompetent defense lawyers and judges who ruled on technicalities rather than on what was right. He also criticized the Legislature for failing to enact his proposals to reform the death penalty system. Ryan announced the pardons in a speech at DePaul University, home to an anti-death penalty center founded by Andrea Lyon, a lawyer who represents Hobley. Sources advising Ryan told NBC News that the governor was up until 1 a.m. making his decision and that calls of support included one from former South African President Nelson Mandela.

THis is the only thing that bothers me about it. This makes it sound personal. Like he was going to show them whos boss because the state senate didnt pass HIS proposed reforms. Other than that , it isnt like he gave away the keys to the jail. He pardoned 4 people who according to the law of the land were improperly imprisoned. The rest are still behind bars.

[madjim]

The so called "western world" can hold it's nose all it wants over the death penalty. I prefer it. No person executed has ever hurt anyone again. I can cite case after case where killers were some how released only to kill again.

In New York state a double murderer of children was released - he became a serial killer who murdered women in central NY

In Pa - a man murdered a State trooper did 30 years and then murdered his neighbor over a minor disagreement.

Pa - biker kills women after she refuses to have sex with ALL of his friends. He shots her in the face an dumps body in quarry. Original sentence is life but he is released despite the sentencing judges recomendation that the bastard never be released again. Yep, he was paroled and yep he murdered a NJ Sate Polceman.

Heres one: Dear soul kidnapps a women, robs her, beats her, drags her behind a car on the highway with speeds past 50 MPH, then rapes her. She dies.

Fortunately he did it it in Alabama - so he was executed.

How about armed robbers known as the "Hi Fi Killers" - robbed a music store - raped the female employees and then forced them at gun point to drink drain cleaner - which killed them. Death penalty deserved- you bet?

So you folks just keep holding your nose - I'll keep voting to pull the switch.

[homer]

The London-based human rights group Amnesty International, which opposes all use of the death penalty, said Ryan’s announcement offered Bush a golden opportunity. “This is a chance for President Bush to bring the United States in line with the world trend against the death penalty,” Amnesty spokesman Kamal Samari told Reuters. “He could take a moral stand and signal that the death penalty is not the deterrent to criminals it is presented as.”

“It is an irony that the world’s superpower is not taking a lead on moral issues,” Samari said.

Governor Ryan, if I remember correctly, was implicated in a license for bribe scandal. It appears as if his actions are not really motivated by morality. Could their have been something else driving Mr. Ryan? I think it is possible.

“His decision is a wake-up call for the United States justice system to catch up with the rest of civilization.” The United States and Japan are the only industrialized democracies in which the death penalty is still used.

What about the non-industrialized countries? Do we just not consider their views? What are their stands and laws considering capital punishment? If we want to speak for the ENTIRE world I think the ENTIRE world should have a voice.

Ryan said on Saturday the U.S. system of capital punishment “is haunted by the demon of error — error in determining guilt and error in determining who among the guilty deserves to die.” Ryan declared a moratorium on executions three years ago. “Because of all these reasons, today I am commuting the sentences of all death row inmates,” he said. All but three of those sentences will go to life in prison without the possibility of parole, said the governor’s spokesman, Dennis Culloton. The three others will get shorter sentences and could eventually be released from prison, although none will be out immediately. “He’s been talking about this for a few days, and in only a handful of cases was he considering, for a variety of reasons, not to include [them] in the commutations,” Culloton said. “Ultimately, late yesterday, he came to the decision this was the only thing to do.”

I thought the U.S. was a democracy, this sound like dictatorship. One man making a blanket decision based on his own beliefs is not democratic. Our leagal system is full of checks and balances and check and balances. “Error in determining guilt and error in determining who among the guilty deserves to die”, no one man has the right to make the kind of statement.

“I have reviewed these cases, and I believe a manifest injustice has occurred,” Ryan said. “I have reviewed these cases, and I believe these men are innocent. I still have some faith in the system that eventually these men would have received justice in our courts, but the old adage is true: Justice delayed is justice denied.” “We have evidence from four men, who did not know each other, all getting beaten and tortured and convicted on the basis of the confessions they allegedly provided,” Ryan said. “They are perfect examples of what is so terribly broken about our system.”

I would submit that a least one of these men was guilty. That being the case, justice for that victim has now been imminently delayed and therefore denied.

If there is this type of evidence, than it should be brought to a court. Each case was tried separately, in the first place, so it should continue to be that way.

I think a, “perfect example of what is so terribly broken about our sysytem” is the fact that one man is able to make this kind of decision and carry it out.

Ryan spread the blame in an hour-long speech Friday, calling the state’s criminal justice system “inaccurate, unjust and unable to separate the innocent from the guilty, and at times very racist.”

Is this something Mr. Ryan really believes? If so, is he planning to move out of this, “unjust” state when he leaves office.

He also criticized the Legislature for failing to enact his proposals to reform the death penalty system.

So it’s to heck with the legislature, he will just do the reforming on his own. Who dose he think he is?

Sources advising Ryan told NBC News that the governor was up until 1 a.m. making his decision and that calls of support included one from former South African President Nelson Mandela.

It is nice of Mr. Mandela to give his support about something in which he has no business doing so. I believe South Africa has plenty of it’s own human rights issues to work out.