Party Members

[Naked Paladin]

@NobleNick

Thanks for the welcome. That is a very intriguing point of view to look at the specialist mages. I never would have thought to look at it that way and now that you mentioned it, it is a great way to do a specialist mage. The only reason I picked a second melee weapon was because I prefer on my main character to not use a ranged weapon unless it can be used from behind a shield. I eventually went for +2 in axes [img]smile.gif[/img]

@G3MM4
Paladins can only be human. Fighters, Paladins and Rangers will receive 4 pp on creation and receive 1 pp every 3rd level. The maximum number of pp that can be assigned to one skill during creation is 2. Fighters are the only class that can have more than 2 pp per weapon. Clerics, Druids, Bards and Rogues can only put 1 pp per weapon and get 2 pp on creation and receive 1 pp every 4th level. Wizards can only put 1 pp per weapon and receive 1 pp every 6th level. The fact that the fighter and ranger can put more than 1 pp into a skill is what makes dual classing so sweet.

Your dwarven fighter would have to start out with 2 pp in axes and 2 pp in hammers, then you could concentrate on one or the other.

Your fighter-druid DC would only be able to go 5 pp in longswords(scimitar) and 2 pp in missiles(slings) before she dual classes because of the facts I listed above.

Your fighter-cleric looks good.

With your bard, I would suggest one point in a ranged weapon and a point into a melee weapon upon creation, then use the ranged weapon as the primary mainly because she'll get slaughtered in melee with her weak hp and fighting skills.

Your thief-illusionist will only get 2 pp on creation and my suggestion would again be 1 pp on a ranged weapon and 1 pp a melee weapon.

After you dual class any character you'll want to put points into skills other than the ones you did as a fighter so that you maximize your pp usage. For example: fighter(9)-druid DC. As a fighter you would put 5 pp in longswords(scimitar) and 2 pp in missiles(slings). Once you dual class, you would put your first 2 points into say clubs and daggers then on your 4th level as a druid, you would put your pp into spears and finally on your 8th level as a druid, you would put your pp into quarter staves. Once you hit 10th level as a druid you'll regain use of your fighter skills which you would switch your melee weapon to a scimitar and ranged weapon to a sling to gain the same advantages from your fighter class.

Multiclass and straight class characters don't require planning like a dual class character does so whatever pp you get after creation on these types of characters is up to you.

Your party definitely looks like a fun time to be had and I hope this information clears some things up for you.

[jmsteven]

Originally posted by Aerich: Cleric - any race, but I prefer humans - it just seems more appropriate. A pure cleric (e.g. no multi- or dual-classing) is nice for the defensive spells, healing, and turn undead ability. [/QB]

I disagree with Aerich regarding pure clerics. Even if you want a high level cleric for the reasons he mentions, it's still far better to start as a ranger and then dual to a cleric at 2nd level. In my example below, the Rangers/Cleric dual-class gets better ability score roles from having been a ranger, 18 + exceptional strength, 2.5 attacks per round, a hated enemy against which he gets +4 to hit and damage, charm animal, modest stealth, and a few extra HP.


Name......................... Aerich the Ghosthunter

Gender....................... Male
Race......................... Human
Alignment.................... Chaotic Good

Abilities:
Strength.................. 18/57
Dexterity................. 18
Constitution.............. 18
Intelligence.............. 10
Wisdom.................... 18
Charisma.................. 13

Armor Class.................. 0
Hit points................... 38/38

Dual-Class:
Class..................... Cleric
Level..................... 3
Experience................ 3600
Next Level................ 6000
Class..................... Ranger
Level..................... 2
Experience................ 2250
Next Level................ Ranger: Level 2
Experience: 2250

Proficiencies:
THAC0..................... 19 ( 16 )
Number of Attacks......... 2½
Lore...................... 13
Move Silently............. 40%
Racial Enemy.............. Spectral Undead
Turn Undead Level......... 3
AI Script................. None

Weapon Proficiencies:
Missile Weapons........... ++
Hammers................... +
Maces..................... ++
Quarter Staves............ +

Ability Bonuses:
To Hit.................... +2
Damage.................... +3
Open Doors................ +30
Weight Allowance.......... +250
Armor Class............... -4
Missile Adjustment........ +2
Reaction Adjustment....... +2
Hit Points/Level.......... +2
Reaction.................. +1
Bonus Priest Spells:
Level 1................... +2
Level 2................... +2

[ 10-27-2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[G3MM4]

OK human paladin it is. I'm at the stage where I'm putting points into abilities. I rolled this (haven't accepted it yet):

STR 18/51
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 9
WIS 18
CHA 17

The truth is I don't know the game very well at all, and am not sure which abilities are most important for a paladin (remember I have HoW and ToLM expansions).

[jmsteven]

Originally posted by G3MM4: OK human paladin it is. I'm at the stage where I'm putting points into abilities. I rolled this (haven't accepted it yet): STR 18/51 DEX 10 CON 13 INT 9 WIS 18 CHA 17 The truth is I don't know the game very well at all, and am not sure which abilities are most important for a paladin (remember I have HoW and ToLM expansions).

I would prioritize STR, DEX, & CON, and roll until I got:

STR 18/51
DEX 18
CON 18
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 17

[G3MM4]

If there's anything I do know about paladins from other games, that is CHA is important as well. But the CHA is high enough as it is since the minimum CHA for paladins in IwD is 17.

And your roll doesn't work because the minimum points are for paladins:

STR 12
DEX 3
CON 9
INT 3
WIS 13
CHA 17

with 28 points to spare.

So if you prioritise STR, DEX, CON, it would have to be:

STR 18/51
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 3
WIS 13
CHA 17

Unless I subtract a point from DEX and put it into CON to even things out a bit. I checked this out in the character creation in IwD. Feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by G3MM4: Half-elf paladin Dwarven fighter Human fighter - druid at level 9 (5 PP Scimitar, 3 PP Sling) (DC) Human fighter - cleric at level 9 (4 PP Mace, 3 PP Sling) (DC) Half-elf bard (If she shouldn't have a weapon at level 11, then what about before then? Does it matter about the number of PP for any given weapon?) Gnomish thief - illusionist

G3MM4,

As Naked Paladin said: Pally needs to be Human; and Fighter/Druid needs a 5/2 or 4/3 weapon PP split (or DC at F[12] to get the extra PP for 5/3). Dwarf starts at 2 and 2; then you can max axe to 5 (if you desire) and continue stacking in blunt weapon after that. You should make it to 5 and 5 if you do the expansions.

Eh, give the Bard a Flail and a crossbow, if you want. My point is: After she hits clvl 11 (which is fairly early in the game), 99.99% of the time there is something she can do for the warrior-heavy party that is MUCH better than pulling out a weapon. 97% of the time that 'something' is --> sing War Chant. I use her ammo slots to pack arrows for the other characters.

Agree with a point or two on jmsteven's post on MC; but disagree with some of his math and definitely his conclusion. Separate post coming, probably later today.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[G3MM4]

Yeah I now know that paladin needs to be human. OK thanks for the advice.

[Roboghost]

Bard advice...

Since the bard doesn't fight much--take advantage of some of the weapons you come across to PROTECT [constant] your bard. When the weapon is the "highlighted slot" weapon, you get its benefits added to your rap sheet.

My favorite is {item spoiler}
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Long Bow +2: Defender (random: 1-10 chance!!! (yuck)). This baby gives +2 AC AND +2 Spell.

I set the Bard to passive for the script--that means they may pling an arrow now and then interrupting their song, but that alerts me to nail the creep who's picking on by bard. I also keep a certain +5 weapon with a bit of range when going close-encounters. That way he/she pokes them until I can move the bard away and bring someone in to kill the bully.

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by jmsteven: I have to disagree with Nick about this one. Here's why:

jmsteven, Here we go...

The only advantage of the human fighter dualed to a druid at 9th or 10th level is the extra 3 PP in scimitars.

Well *IF* this was the only thing, then it would be plenty (see below), but I don't think it is. The Single Class (SC) Fighter with CON=18 and "Max HP per level" gets 14 HP per level for the first 9 levels. If my other MC characters are any indication, the MC will not. The IWD paradigm is unclear to me, but I would expect something like 5 HP per Druid level and 7 HP per Fighter level, for a total of 112 HP for the MC F[9]/D[10]. I would expect 134 HP for the DC F[9]/D[10].

This gives the dual-class a +2 bonus to hit and +3 bonus damage over the multiclass with 2 PP per weapon.

And that is a lot! Let's say an MC and DC F/D, both armed with Scimitar that does AVERAGE damage of 8 HP meet a monster with AC= 5. The MC's THAC0 is a reasonable 10 and the DC's THAC0 (5 PP in melee) is 8. MC will average (20-(10-5)+1)-1 = 20-(10-5) = 15 hits for each 20 attacks. Averaging 8 HP/hit + 8 HP for the critical hit, the MC does about 128 HP of damage in 20 attacks. The DC will average 20-(8-5) = 17 hits for every 20 attacks. Averaging 11 HP/hit + 11 HP for the critical hit, the DC does about 198 HP of damage in 20 attacks. The DC averages about (198-128)/128 = 55% MORE damage than the MC per attempt (attack).

BUT WAIT, there's more!! Are we just going to be fighting AC=5 monsters in HoW and TotLM? Hope you weren't counting on it. How do the DC and MC fare against an opponent with, say, AC = -5 ? MC gets in 20-(10-(-5)) = 5 hits + bonus for critical, for about 48 HP damage per 20 Attacks. The DC gets in 20-(8-(-5) = 7 hits + bonus, for about 88 HP damage per 20 attacks. The DC averages (88-48)/48 = 83% MORE damage than the MC per attempt. That means the DC is averaging almost DOUBLE the damage of the MC per attempt.

For monster AC = -9: MC gets in 1 hit for 8 + 8 = 16 damage per 20 attempts. DC averages 3 hits for 44 damage per 20 attempts. The DC does 175% MORE damage than the MC. (Said another way: the DC averages 275% of the damage of the MC per attempt. Said yet another way: In a party of 3 MCs and one DC against this type of these monsters, the DC would dish out almost as much damage as ALL THREE MCs -COMBINED- !!)

For monster AC = -20: MC gets in 1 hit for 8 + 8 = 16 damage per 20 attempts. DC also gets in one hit for 11 + 11 = 22 damage per 20 attempts. The DC does 38% MORE damage than the MC. (Said another way: the DC averages 138% of the damage of the MC per attempt.)

So, as the enemy gets tougher, the DC gets better, in comparison to the MC. For tough opponents, he can, under the right circumstances, dish out OVER DOUBLE the damage of the MC, per attempt!!

BUT WAIT, there's more!! You have another question that leads to a revelation that opens up the gap between MC and DC even further!

The additonal 1/2 attack for 5 PP is offset by 1/2 attack at 13th level for the multiclass.

Check me on this: I know that the combined ApR bonuses from the 3rd PP and the 5th PP in a melee weapon add up to AT LEAST 1 ApR; and, IIRC, the number is 1.5 ApR. Add in the 0.5 bonus at F(7) to get 2 ApR bonus for the DC, giving him a total of 3ApR. Give the MC the 0.5 ApR bonuses at F(7) and F(13) and he gets a bonus of 1 ApR, for a total of 2 ApR. We have a 1 ApR advantage for the DC over the MC.

Now, let's bring our previous numbers forward and apply this new knowledge:

Monster AC = 5
----- MC averages (2ApR)x(128HP/20Att.) = 12.8 HP/round.
----- DC averages (3APR)x(198HP/20Att.) = 29.7 HP/round.
----- DC damage = 28/12 = 232% of MC damage

Monster AC = -5
----- MC averages (2ApR)x(48HP/20Att. ) = 4.8 HP/round.
----- DC averages (3APR)x(88HP/20Att.) = 13.2 HP/round.
----- DC damage = 11.55/4 = 275% of MC damage

Monster AC = -9
----- MC averages (2ApR)x(16HP/20Att. ) = 1.6 HP/round.
----- DC averages (3APR)x(44HP/20Att.) = 6.6 HP/round.
----- DC damage = 4.95/0.8 = 413% of MC damage

Monster AC = -20
----- MC averages (2ApR)x(16HP/20Att. ) = 1.6 HP/round.
----- DC averages (3APR)x(22HP/20Att.) = 3.3 HP/round.
----- DC damage = 4.95/0.8 = 206% of MC damage

So, we can expect the DC F[9]/D to dish out AT LEAST 2 times the damage of the MC -ALL- the time, and something on the order of 4 (FOUR!!!) times as much damage as the MC when the going gets tough. The tougher the opponent (i.e., when you really, REALLY need good melee performance), the better the DC.

BUT WAIT, there's more!! Because the DC Fighter/Druid has reaped virtually all the benefits of a SC Fighter and gone on to Druid, he advances in Druid much faster than the MC Druid! My F/D is something like F[10]/D[17]! It's ridiculous!! He has over 170 HP and can do EVERYTHING a fully SC Druid can (and several VERY important things that a SC Druid should not try at home)!

I think that this advantage is relatively modest compared to the advantages of the multiclass

I do not.

The half-elf multi-class can use all skills thoughout the entire game, and will increase druid levels very quickly early in the game. There are no awkward periods where you can't fight well or wear metal armor, and there's no need to time the transition to a key moment in the game.

The MC can't fight anywhere nearly as well as the DC for the ENTIRE game, except for 10 short Druid-only levels. Otherwise, I agree.

The multi-class will usually get better stats. It's much easier for the multiclass to role 90+ stat points because they get a minimum of 12 WIS and 15 CHA, whereas the dual-class gets a min. 3 WIS and 3 CHA. The multiclass also has more flexibility in ability score distribution. Since they only need 12 WIS and 15 CHA, they can put more points in DEX and CON. In contrast, the fighter who wants to dual to a druid must have 17 WIS & 17 CHA.

Agreed. For that agonizing 30 to 60 minutes during the DC roll, you may wish you had gone MC.

Also, the half-elf multiclass gets 30% resistance to sleep and charm spells, and can use elf/half-elf only items. Without giving away a spoiler, there are a couple of items in the game that can only be used by elves and half-elves. There are no items available to humans that cannot be used by half-elves.

I hadn't considered this. Beforre doing this, remember that Raise Dead will not work on Elves. Advantage: Half-elf MC.

At the higher levels, the druid (either multi- or dual- class) will most likely just use spells like static charge, lighting, produce fire, summons, etc. and not engage in melee combat that much anyway.

You can choose to use your F/D this way; and if so, you have a valid point. In HoW and TotLM, my DC Fighter/Druid typically uses spells only in tough battles, shapeshifts only occasionally, and engages in a -LOT- of melee combat . The 170+ HP that he has makes him the king of HP in my party; and I highly doubt he would have gotten anywhere near there as an MC.

In aggregate, the advantages of the multiclass fighter/druid far surpass dual-class' attack and damage bonuses of having 5 PP instead of 2 PP.

I trust that after reading this, some folks will take your aggregate and mix it with some portland cement and water; and, as the stuff is curing, boldly carve "Go DC!" in it.

EDIT: Revised numbers to show the effects of critical hit bonuses.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-28-2004, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[jmsteven]

Originally posted by G3MM4: If there's anything I do know about paladins from other games, that is CHA is important as well. But the CHA is high enough as it is since the minimum CHA for paladins in IwD is 17. And your roll doesn't work because the minimum points are for paladins: STR 12 DEX 3 CON 9 INT 3 WIS 13 CHA 17 with 28 points to spare. So if you prioritise STR, DEX, CON, it would have to be: STR 18/51 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 3 WIS 13 CHA 17 Unless I subtract a point from DEX and put it into CON to even things out a bit. I checked this out in the character creation in IwD. Feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

I just meant you should KEEP ROLLING until you get enough points to max-out STR, DEX, & CON. It shouldn't take too long to get the 94 total stat points for the build suggested.