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[jmsteven]

Originally posted by galdur: How can you reach 30/30 lvl? Isn't experience cap only 8 mil XP? It differs for HoF mode?

With the HOW expansion pack installed, characters can achieve 30th level in each class. There are enough rule changes with HOW installed that it makes basic IWD and IWD/HOW two very different games.

For example, the Ranger in basic IWD has a fairly comprehensive spellbook at level 14. In HOW , the 14th level Ranger is still a newbie at spellcasting. This is one class that is weaker in HOW than in IWD.

With HOW installed, Paladins get extra abilities: they are immune to fear & ALL disease, and can cast holy smite as a special ability.

Druids are also much stronger in HOW than in basic IWD. They have access to a lot of spells that weren't implemented in the original.

There are also a lot more scrolls, items and spells for mages in HOW, and thieves have more advantages, like "evasion" and "crippling strike".

The two games share most of the same story, but the changes in character abilities, and also the items in the game, make IWD and IWD/HOW very different in terms of party-building strategy.

For just basic IWD, I would have:

(1) Human Paladin (large swords & great swords)
(2) Elf Ranger (bows & large swords)
(3) Human Ranger dual to Cleric at level 2 (hammers & maces)
(4) Half-Elf Bard (bows & swords)
(5) Human Thief dual to Fighter at level 4 (all thieving skills in find/remove traps)
(6) Gnome Fighter/Illusionist


Here's why (SPOILER ALERT)

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Paladin: The paladin will eventually get a special longsword only she can use. She has high CHA, making her a good party leader, and there are several role-playing dialogue options just for the Paladin. Early in the game she wears Plate-mail armor and fights with either a +1 longsword or Kresseleck's 2-handed sword. Her prot. from evil lowers her AC to where she won't need a shield until a good one turns up in Dragons Eye or later.

Elf Ranger: Rangers get an extra attack/round when not using a shield. They can also serve as party scouts, and become decent healers in the latter half of the game. The elf is a logical choice because she gets 19 Dex, +1 to hit with bows & swords, and 90% resistance to sleep & charm spells. She'll fight with a composite bow and +1 longsword early in the game and shift between platemail and studded leather until she finds elven chain.

The Human Ranger who duals to a Cleric at level 2 gets all the ranger abilities (exceptional strength, 2 PP for two weapons, extra attack, racial enemy, stealth, & charm animal), and can still function as an all-out cleric. Early in the game she wears platemail, carries a shield, and fights with a +1 mace or morning star.

The Half-Elf Bard is the party's pickpocket and fights as a back-row archer. Early in the game, she wears +1 chainmail from the Vale of Shadows, and fights mostly with a composite bow. She is neutrally aligned, and later wears the Baleful Mail from Dragons Eye.

The Human Thief who duals to a Fighter at 4th level puts all thief skills in find/remove traps. At 4th level, this skill will be at 100% + whatever items/potions are used for enhancement. This character begins with two thief weapons, and continues to place fighter weapon PP in the same slots. At Thief[4]/Fighter[6], she will have 5 PP in one weapon and 3 PP in another. She can find traps in any armor, but may have to take it off to remove traps.

The Gnome Fighter/Illusionist is a very powerful party addition. She can have exceptional strength, 18 Dex, 18 Con, and can wear the best AC helm in the game. Early in the game, she wears metal armor, fights with blunt weapons, and buys the Helm of the Trusted Defender ASAP. She casts "haste" for fights, and "invisibility" on the Thief/Fighter so he can find/remove traps without being seen.

Overall, this is a good party strategy for IWD w/o HOW installed.

[jmsteven]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NobleNick:
Well, we just about beat this horse to death, but, at the risk of being nauseating...[qb]

[qb]1d10 +4 bonus for CON=18 gives 10+4=14 with max HP option. I'm sticking with 14HP per level: Don't otherwise know how to explain how a Fighter[9] can get 126 HP. The approximately 22 extra HP of DC over MC for F[9]/D[10], though not huge, is not trivial either. Even if you play without max HP (and my hat's off to you for doing so), my guess (I haven't played this way) is that it is not a statistical dead heat. Yes, in your case the DC COULD even end up with even fewer points than the MC, but, statisically, it's not likely: Advantage DC.

First, it's only a 9 HP advantage, not 22 HP:
Fighter: 14 * 9 = 126
Fighter/Druid: 13 * 9 = 117

Second, when not playing with Max HP, the two are about even. The fighter will get 14 HP at 1st level and then average 9 HP thereafter until 9th level for an average of 86 HP. The multi-class will get 13 HP at 1st level and then average 4.5 HP per fighter level and 4 HP per druid level for a total of 81 HP at 9th level. I don't think 5 HP, or even 9 HP makes much of a difference.


...I would expect an MC F/D to END the game at roughly levels 15/17....at what levels is your MC getting the better THAC0 and gaining the ApR? (All the following are IIRC.) The MC gets 1 base ApR + 0.5 ApR at F[7] + 0.5 ApR at F[13] + ZERO ApR for stacked PP. The DC gets 1 base + 0.5 at F[7} + 0.5 ApR at 3PP + 1.0 ApR at 5PP. That gives the MC a total of 2 ApR and the DC gets 3 ApR: a 1ApR advantage (or a 0.5 ApR advantage, if I am wrong and it is only 0.5 incremental ApR gained at 5 PP.) Plus, by your numbers, the DC has a 2 point THAC0 bonus over the MC for higher stacked PP. and lets not forget the non-trivial 3 point damage bonus advantage for the DC. Again: At exactly which levels in which class do you say that the MC F[13]/D[14] obviates the advantage that the DC has?

You're incorrect regarding the ApR. There is a .5 ApR for 2 PP stacked. This is why Paladins can get 1.5 ApR in the beginning of the game. There is a .5 ApR bonus at 7th level and 13th level, and there is a 0.5 ApR bonus for 5 PP stacked.

This means that a 9th level fighter with 5 PP stacked will have:
1.0 ApR to start
0.5 ApR for 2 PP
0.5 ApR for 5 PP
0.5 ApR for 7th level
----------------------
2.5 ApR Total

A multiclass F[13]/Drud[14] with 2 PP stacked will have:
1.0 ApR to start
0.5 ApR for 2 PP
0.5 ApR for 7th level
0.5 ApR for 13th level
----------------------
2.5 ApR Total

The only way the dual class gets the attack advantage is by waiting until 13th level to dual. If you dual at 9th level, there is no difference in ApR.

Also, the +2 "to hit" advantage of 5 PP stacked is lost because the fighter THAC0 for the F[13]/D[14] multiclass is 4 levels better than the THAC0 for the F[9] dual-class.

Based on the above comparison example, the ONLY advantage of the stacked 5 PP is the 3 points damage bonus, which will equal an extra 7.5 HP in damage/round if every attack hits. This is a relatively modest advantage, and the proportion of damage caused by PP decreases as damage from other sources increases.

Here's an example

Take two fighter/druids. Both drink a potion of Storm Giant Strength (24 STR) and have a +5 Scimitar. One is DC and has 5 PP. The other is MC and has 2 PP.

Dual-class averages 4 + 5 (scimitar) + 14 (strength) + 5 (PP bonus) = 28 x 2.5 ApR = 70 damage/round if each attack hits.

Multi-class averages 4 + 5 (scimitar) + 14 (strength) + 2 (PP bonus) = 25 x 2.5 = 62.5 damage/round if each attack hits.

The 5 PP DC now only causes 11% more damage than the 2 PP DC, and whatever enemy is being attacked will probably be dead within 3 rounds regardless...

I concede that a Fighter[13] dual to Druid will be more significantly more powerful at the end-game than the multi-class because of the +3 damage AND 0.5 ApR bonus, but not Fighter[9] dual class.

My adversion to dual classing like this, however, is having to go through much of the game without the second class' abilities. If you wait until, say Dorn's Deep or Wyrm's Tooth to dual-class, a lot of the game is already over. If I want a druid for my party, I want her for healing and offensive spells in the Vale of Shadows, Dragons Eye and Severed Hand.

By the end of the game, the party is ridiculously overpowered anyway and it doesn't matter if you're a fighter/druid DC or MC.

[ 10-28-2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[NobleNick]

jmsteven,

Thank you for detailing your argument so well.

I see we are coming closer to agreement: It looks like you are on board with the 14 HP per level for Fighter with CON=18. Meanwhile, thanks to the search that your excellently structured statement kicked off, I made the RE-discovery that the first 0.5 ApR bonus is awarded at 2PP. Could have sworn it was 3PP; and that the MC, therefore, missed it. I think my brain is turning to mush. O.K., so I see how the MC comes up to 2.5 ApR; but I still have it on good counsel (which I just checked here ) that the SC Fighter gets a total of 1.5 ApR at 5 PP (with the last 1.0 ApR awarded for the 5th PP). Yes, evidently the manual says 0.5 ApR awarded for 5th PP. Sometimes, including maybe this time, the manual is wrong.

I agree that 5 or 6 HP is not a huge difference if you are in the 80's. I am still concerned about your THAC0 assertions for the MC. Those bonuses seem to magically appear out of nowhere. Got any by-level data?

I need to redo the comparison table in my previous post. But our discussion has brought me (kicking and screaming) to the conclusion that I may still be blowing as much hot air about the MC as you evidently have been about the DC. Before I revise the comparison, I intend to do an accelerated build of a party of MC and DC Fighter/Druids with trusty (but no bonuses) Scimitars, and log exactly what stats they have at each level. It could take me a while (like over a month) to get around to this, since I have a lot on my plate with a full time job, grad class and family.

Let's see, MC starts with "M" and DC starts with "D" ... Hmmm... Maybe I'll call them Mork and Dork.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-29-2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[jmsteven]

In response to NobleNick's statement:
"I agree that 5 or 6 HP is not a huge difference if you are in the 80's. I am still concerned about your THAC0 assertions for the MC. Those bonuses seem to magically appear out of nowhere. Got any by-level data?"

The THAC0 for warriors starts at 20 and is reduced by 1 each level until 20th level, at which time it will be 1.

A 9th level fighter has a natural THAC0 = 12
A 13th level fighter has a natural THAC0 = 8

Therefore, the multiclass at F[13]/D[14] with 2 PP will still have a 2-point THAC0 advantage over the F[9] dual-class with 5 PP.

Advantage: multiclass

This +2 THAC0 advantage translate to a 10% greater probability of hitting, and somewhat mitigates the 3 points of damage lost by not having 5 PP.

In weapon terms, it's like choosing between these two:

Scimitar of Accurate Striking
To hit: +4
Damage: 1d8 + 2

or

Scimitar of Deep Cuts
To hit: +2
Damage: 1d8 + 5

[ 10-29-2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[Soothsayer]

Personally I always enjoy the game much more if I only have a 4 person party. Youll level up much faster, and I find the game much easier.

I would reccommend:

1 Pure Tank. Fighter or Paladin or Ranger
2 Cleric/Mage. Wears armour until powerful enough to defend herself.
3 Dual Fighter/Theif. Fighter[6] should do more is better if playing expansions.
4 Specialist Mage. Give this one all the destructive spells to kick some ***, and the other spellcaster all those weird spells you always find interesting but never seem to have and space for.

Oh and if playing expansions make all spellcsters true neutral, than youll get way more spells.
Have fun!

[SpongeLikeCow]

This thread gave me a headache.

Here are parties I've had.

Fighter axe/flail
Fighter/Cleric MC hammer/flail/sling
Fighter/Thief MC longsword/shortsword/bow
Cleric
Bard
Mage

Pretty simple and straightforward.


Fighter axe/flail
Fighter greatsword/halberd/xbow
Fighter/Thief MC shortsword/longsword/bow
Fighter/Druid MC staff/spear/sling
Cleric/Mage MC
Cleric/Mage MC

4 tanks and a huge amount of spell power.

Fighter/Thief
Ranger/Cleric
Fighter/Mage

Got bored with these.