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Old 08-22-2004, 07:43 AM   #31
Rataxes
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Astounding, a deep discussion about a movie called Alien VS Predator

Having seen the trailer, it looks like a pile of garbage to me, might even top the utter crappiness of Van Helsing.
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Old 08-22-2004, 09:07 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rataxes:
Astounding, a deep discussion about a movie called Alien VS Predator

Having seen the trailer, it looks like a pile of garbage to me, might even top the utter crappiness of Van Helsing.
LOL...

I just saw the movie twice in a row.. the first time I had a bunch of a-holes that were SOOOO noisy, moving in and out of the theater almost non-stop. Combine this with sound that was suppressed in level becuase the idiot projectionist didn't have the surround track on! So we removed multiple barricades to get to the last showing and just walked in and sat down - what a DIFFERENCE!

In any event.. the Predator species does deserve a deep discussion - at least for Sci-Fi buffs. ANY species with a superior technological advantage (to us) warrents it, and then its kind of fun to pick a-part the incongruities.

To me there were only 4 elements in the movie that were tough to "get past".
1. 2000 METERS below the surface of the ice where the water level was no more than 300 FEET below the ice platue of the island. Umm, the water level must have raised a HELL OF A LOT over the ensuing millenia. (the top of a sea mount maybe, but NEVER an island.)
2. The shaft angle? As bad as that is how were the lowly humans going to cut into 2000 Meters of ice with no equipment? They just show-up and magically there is a hole that they couldn't create w/ 3+ years and the right equipment. "Were on a tight deadline to get there first".. Pluuuueeeeeze! Then the humans look at the angle, and then look around for the equipment - sure the camera shows us the monster swiss cheese hole in the nearby buildings, but somehow none of them could see this.
3. The last time the Predators used the gun vault was was in 1909.. how did the ice shaft that was last carved become solid again?
4. And of course even with adrenaline maxed, in shock, and familiar with very cold enviorments, how do you get by with a t-shirt in the Antartic?

As for the plot (other than the above elements (particularly #2)), I think it was done pretty well. Sure there were errors with "time-dialation" and a few other basic fubars.. like how does a female human run as fast as a Predator.. or how many aliens vs. how many hosts.. how fast can a sled go.. but the basics behind the plot were there - it didn't take an unbelievable leap of faith to piece together the elements behind the two species and their confrontation. In otherwords the continuity is in fact "there" as far as the underlying plot, script continuity did however lead to odd time-dialation - probably to keep the movie "going" and the audiance happy.

1st off this is not a freddy vs. jason thing - the Aliens vs. Predator is something of a misnomer.

So looking at the Predator..

Predator: an advanced lizard species that has been around for a VERY long time that has at least some members of its society that are big game hunters. No leap of faith there. They never depict the entire Predator species as being Predator's or "warriors".
So here we have the occasional ship with a hunting party and some initiates that want into the "club" so to speak (or some members that want a higher status). Again, very plausible. If you were an excellent hunter in an elite club you would most likely require initiation into your club showing proof of your hunting abilities.
The "club" sets up a hunting preserve on a back-water planet and stocks it with game. Ummm, again no surpises there.
Is it likely that such an old species with spacefaring craft should come across the Aliens and think they would make good game? Umm, yup. If they have the prowess and technological ability to capture the Aliens, then they have the ability to use them for game.
Is it plausible that a preserve can become over-run.. especially if the wardens are low tech humans relying on 50+ year old instructions? Yup. (this is with regard to the historical cutsceene depicting a few Predators being overrun by the Aliens - as seen in the advertisement). Additionally the 3d "radar" of the Predators never seemed to pick-up the signitures of the Aliens (something they probably thought was usefull for good prey). Is it plausible that they would send down a hunting party to a preserve they thought was in control.. only to find out latter that it wasn't? Yes - if they couldn't detect the aliens life signs, and they were in-hiding waiting to ambush the Predators. Would a ship have remained there to pick them up from the impossible odds or not? Maybe not, afterall the enviorment was supposedly ideal - they could have sent down the initiates and gone to some other preserve and then come back and saw the crater (OOOOPPPPS!)
The Predators know that have a superior advantage over their prey.. so would they even the field? (and remember, this contest is far more "extreme" - i.e. You want into the club? then you REALLY need to prove yourself.) This hunt NEEDS to be more challanging and life threatening - otherwise whats the point of trying to get into the club? So with this regard why not make some limitations: 1. inubation time for full-grown aliens. 2. game doesn't start until the side arms are taken. 3. only some of the weapons are partially resistant to the acid blood of the aliens (spear, shurkien, and carving dagger), while others are not (arm blade, side arm, net, armor) (additionally it makes sense that the arm blade wouldn't be - afterall your hand is right next to it - who would use a short range weapon that could cause serious damage to the user in its use (except of course the desperate)). 4. Pyramid enviorment changes, timeing is predictable but manner of the change isn't.
Could the Aliens get the advantage by things going wrong? Sure - it happened once before on a more extremem scale as seen in the historical cutscene. This movie of course was a more mild version of repeated history for the Predator.

other seeming inconsistances..

Sensing a queen vs. a warrior (already mentioned)
Cleaning the Alien skull and Tail.. any number of ways - consider the skull (trophy) cleaning process in the first two movies.
Seeing an overmatched match and not "stepping-in" (queen vs. initiate). I'd be pretty pissed that the queen was allowed to escape, plus its a contest and the initiate seemed to have survived so-far (i.e. why interupt a good fight).
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:02 AM   #33
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Cleaning the Alien skull and Tail.. any number of ways - consider the skull (trophy) cleaning process in the first two movies.
True, and in the 2nd movie there was an Alien skull on the ship with the elders, so it's established (even if you don't look at the other material, ie comics, 'toon's, games, etc) that they are regarded as fit game (more dangerous than humans or not depends entirely upon how capable the predators see us as being)
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Old 08-23-2004, 01:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Cleaning the Alien skull and Tail.. any number of ways - consider the skull (trophy) cleaning process in the first two movies.
True, and in the 2nd movie there was an Alien skull on the ship with the elders, so it's established (even if you don't look at the other material, ie comics, 'toon's, games, etc) that they are regarded as fit game (more dangerous than humans or not depends entirely upon how capable the predators see us as being) </font>[/QUOTE]I'd say the human as a race is more dangerous than the aliens, because if the presence of the predator became common knowledge, they'd have a relatively advanced, adaptable intelligent ennemy, while the aliens in general are not smart enough to really understand the existance of the predator.

Think of the aliens as wolves. They can know there are another predator on their hunting ground, they can recognise them, but can they scout out to find out where they are coming from, find out the strength, weaknesses and how to defeat them? Maybe the Queen would be smart enough, but probably not the regular ones.

Also, the aliens are not likely to evolve any more than they are right now, while the human have the potentials to advance their technology.

Of course in pure melee combat the aliens are a much more dangerous prey.
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:04 PM   #35
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Originally posted by Luvian:
I'd say the human as a race is more dangerous than the aliens, because if the presence of the predator became common knowledge, they'd have a relatively advanced, adaptable intelligent ennemy, while the aliens in general are not smart enough to really understand the existance of the predator.

Think of the aliens as wolves. They can know there are another predator on their hunting ground, they can recognise them, but can they scout out to find out where they are coming from, find out the strength, weaknesses and how to defeat them? Maybe the Queen would be smart enough, but probably not the regular ones.

Also, the aliens are not likely to evolve any more than they are right now, while the human have the potentials to advance their technology.

Of course in pure melee combat the aliens are a much more dangerous prey.
Although the problem with that line of thought is the same one that plagued the humans in Pred 2, most of humanity is too fractured to fight against an enemy in our midst cohesively, especially one as dangerous as Pred's. In the first movie it took a highly trained special op's team to take down 1 predator, and only 2 people were capable of survival (not counting the ones that ran away), the amerindian, and Arnold, the Amerind gave himself up to buy time (I still think he could have taken the thing down if he had decided to fight it). In a large population area, with a group of Pred's looking to unleash hell on the world, it would take nukes to stop them (which they will gladly use themselves if they get injured to the point of risking being caught/captured, or just to keep their tech aweay from humans).

Aliens work in concert, very much like wolves, and aside from picking up characteristics from their hosts, wouldn't be that dangerous (now I have seen prerd/alien hybrids and they are one of the scariest things out there as far as dangerousness, one of the AvP comics), in one of teh crossovers with DC superman got implanted with one, and had to puke the thing up into the sun to keep a "superalien" from spawning. again it really depends on what base creature the aliens are spawning from, the human-alien brids aren't nearly as dangerous as some of the other potential brids.
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:37 PM   #36
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Yes, but the Human race as a whole didn't know of the Existence of the Predators. If all the human did they would unite against them, then the predator would have no choice but to Anihilate us all, and that's not their way. They are hunter, not conquerors.

The Aliens will never really go out of their way to find out where the Predators are coming from and try to stop them, so the Predators don't have to keep their presence secret.

Think of it that way, if you were sent back to the medieval age with a machine gun and told that to get back you had to either kill 100 humans or 100 lions, which one would you think would be less risky?
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Old 08-23-2004, 03:40 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Cleaning the Alien skull and Tail.. any number of ways - consider the skull (trophy) cleaning process in the first two movies.
True, and in the 2nd movie there was an Alien skull on the ship with the elders, so it's established (even if you don't look at the other material, ie comics, 'toon's, games, etc) that they are regarded as fit game (more dangerous than humans or not depends entirely upon how capable the predators see us as being) </font>[/QUOTE]I think this is clearly established with the 3 movies.. The Predator's see ALL Aliens as dangerous prey, whereas only a few humans are dangerous. Of course its eminently plausible that some of of the dangerous humans are more dangerous than any alien (Arnold, Danny).

Luvian wrote:

-"I'd say the human as a race is more dangerous than the aliens.."

and later wrote:

-"If all the human did they would unite against them, then the predator would have no choice but to Anihilate us all, and that's not their way. They are hunter, not conquerors."

This is a moot point exactly because the Predators we have seen are hunters.. so whether one race is more dangerous than another means nothing to the Predator's we have seen - they would pull away from conflict that would significantly endanger either species, (presumably unless it threatened their own species or one species threatened another).
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Old 08-23-2004, 04:53 PM   #38
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Hunters, not warriors, they have no interest in a war with humanity, which is why they hide from Humans.

Humans can declare war to the Predators and try to fight them. The Aliens can't really, they just mostly kill what get in their way.

Aliens are pretty much to the limit of their evolution. They won't really change anymore. Sure, they might mix with another specy and create some powerfull Aliens, but nothing that could protect them from an orbital attack. They also can't do as much destruction as human weapons, like Nuclear Missile in the present, and the more sophisticated weaponry of the humans of Alien 2.

We know that the only real edge the Predators have is their technological advance. The human can learn from them, the Aliens can't. So the Human are the real menace. Aliens are powerfull preys. Human are potential rivals.

An Alien colony is rather easy to destroy, if you don't mind the destruction it will cause.
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:02 PM   #39
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I have to say I'm really enjoying this topic. I saw the movie and did enjoy it, despite its flaws, such as some weapons melting and others not. Thats a point of continuity that would have been easy to maintain, which is why its annoying.

The main reason im posting, however, is to mention something from the original Alien movie. When the humans find the first eggs, they are in a sort of 'ship', and there is what looks like a giant alien 'pilot'. I havent seen the movie in a while so maybe someone can explain it better, but I remember that image of pilot and ship distinctly, so maybe there is more to their civilization and evolution that has been put forth in the other movies. If anyone has the movie and feels like doing research for this topic, take a look at the beginning.
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Old 08-24-2004, 05:21 AM   #40
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Originally posted by Kazilan:
I have to say I'm really enjoying this topic. I saw the movie and did enjoy it, despite its flaws, such as some weapons melting and others not. Thats a point of continuity that would have been easy to maintain, which is why its annoying.

The main reason im posting, however, is to mention something from the original Alien movie. When the humans find the first eggs, they are in a sort of 'ship', and there is what looks like a giant alien 'pilot'. I havent seen the movie in a while so maybe someone can explain it better, but I remember that image of pilot and ship distinctly, so maybe there is more to their civilization and evolution that has been put forth in the other movies. If anyone has the movie and feels like doing research for this topic, take a look at the beginning.
It's been years since I saw it too, but from what I remember, those were people that got killed off by Aliens, just like what nearly happened to the main guys of the movie.
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