Religion in Schools

[Cerek the Barbaric]

This is an issue I've discussed with my college buddies in our e-mail debates and I thought it would make for an interesting discussion here as well.

The thread title is very broad, so I will narrow it down a bit. I want to focus on two aspects of religion appearing in school and debate these issues.

First, prayer in school. I'm talking primarily about "P.A. Prayer" (prayers said on behalf of the student body over the "P.A." system or on behalf of the athletes at a sporting event) rather than class-led or individual prayers - but I realize the discussion will inevitable involve ALL forms of prayer in school. Still, I would like to keep the focus on P.A. Prayers as much as possible.

Second, Gideon's handing out Bibles to school children.

Are these examples a breach of the Constitutional admonishment to keep church and state separate? Or do they conform to the requirements of "freedom of religion and religious practice"? Are they acceptable under certain conditions or should they not be allowed in any shape, form, or fashion?

BTW, this does not necessarily have to turn into another "Circle of Strife" argument. I'm a Southern Baptist, but I was given enough evidence to actually change my view on one of these two topics by a close friend who is also an atheist.

So let's keep an open mind and consider the weight of each other's arguments - and as always - argue the point rather than attacking the person! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Dreamer128]

Since I'm not an American, I'm not going to debate wheter or not these issues violate your constitution. However, in The Netherlands there are special religieus schools for people with an above average dedication to their religion. And I think that such is the way it should be. One should not force the faith of a minority upon the rest of the group. Not to mention that the fact that we have a load of different religions here would certainly lead to... uneasy situations.

[Rokenn]

Well my POV on this is pretty solid. As an atheist I resent the fact that my tax dollars are spent propagating any religion. I do not want my tax dollars going to any religious institution. If you want to promote your religion go right ahead, just don't make me pay for it [img]smile.gif[/img]


As a compromise I would consider it the schools gave equal time to every religion. Islam, Judaism, Wicca, Buddhism, etc... In almost all the case of religion in pubic institutions it is Christianity that is being pushed.

I have nothing against Christian's, some of my best friends are Christians. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Stormymystic]

I have to make a stand on this one, Prayers in school should be voulontary and not forced, or for that matter not completlt ruled out either, it is not right that the people took over this and did not let the kids decide what they wanted
if there was less controversy over this, more people might be inclined to be more religious

[WillowIX]

Interesting topic Cerek. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

If prayers should have a part in school I believe it should be done over the P.A system. If you want to participate you can do so. If religion isn't your type of candy you can ignore it but still sit through it. I doubt that will do anyone any harm.

I'm not very fond of people handing out bibles in school. On the other hand I'm not very fond of people handing out anything to my daughter outside of school. However I don't have a problem with this if it's done to older children who knows what it is all about and are able to make a rational decision. The above goes if it is voluntary, by that I mean that the Gideons should stand back and let the students make the first move, not stick a bible in everyone's face. Chances are that will meka people feel offended. Now I can't debate this from an American constitutional point of view. I will leave that to our American members.

[Timber Loftis]

The problem with religion in schools is "Whose religion?" Private religious schools are great. But, in a PUBLIC school, if Suzie can say the Lord's Prayer before the class, Ahmed can lead everyone in five prayers facing east everyday.

If you don't allow Ahmed to do this, yet still allow Suzie, with tax dollars it becomes an "establishing of religion" prohibited by the Constitution.

All of this applies to the PA prayer as well. And I, too, don't want my tax dollars spend establishing a religion, like Rokenn said.

However, I must say that religious indoctrination didn't hurt me any, or make me a worse person. Years of Sunday School didn't stop me from deciding to become an atheist.

Plus, I'd rather have my kids say 40 straight prayers in school that have them spend 1 more minute catering to the dumbest student in the class or doing some stupid obviously non-educational activity that schools and teachers get stuck with administering these days (Damn the legislature).

Obviously, I'm not solid in my opinion on the issue. [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img]

[Zero Alpha]

i may not be american, but i still think its unfair to push or even Represent any religeon in school. at that age children learn the fastest, and their belifs are easier to sculpt. the way i see it they should only be told about reliegion at all when they are old enough to make an informed reaserched decision based on facts, not on what they feel is right because the were young enough for it to be set into them.

well just my 2 cents

[Chewbacca]

Besides the constitutional barrier, I think a problem with religion in schools is only one religion makes a big deal out of it. I have never heard of a Buddist, or Hindu, or Muslim, or Pagan, or many other faiths making a call for prayer over the intercom or handing out religious literature at school.

I maybe wrong with the idea that the issue is really the promotion and practice of Christianity at public schools, not "religion in general" in public school.
But if the issue is the broader spectrum of religion then many faiths would be trying to get their prayers, affirmations, and practices woven into school activities and curriculum, which isnt the case.

NO disrespect to Christians is intended with this observation. If anyone can provide information that this issue is more of a general "religion" nature rather than a "Christian" one I would find it helpful to discredit my own observation.

I think public religious practice has no place in schools. Individual students can worship on their own.

I believe this is the spirit of the constitutional seperation of church and state as well as being fair and equitable in general.

Besides, religions have the freedom to make private schools, where they can promote religion all they want.

[ 05-27-2003, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Zero Alpha]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I believe this is the spirit of the constitutional seperation of church and state as well as being fair and equitable in general.

could you (or anyone) post a link to somewhere i can read the consitution, as i dont live in america. its hard to comment on something to havnt read

[Stormymystic]

I agree with you, and as being a non beliver and beliving more in the wiccan belifes than christianity, I have a harder problem with public displays of worship, why should anyone be condemed for their belifes ornon belifes? I think every school should hold a "prayer" time, but make it silent where what ever belife the child has, can be done then