Jamie Bulger Killers. Release them or not?

[The Voice of Silence]

I do not care that they are free, it is just another sentance of them. They must now live with the fear of being found out for the rest of their existance and those of you who believe in an afterlife would see them suffering enteral torment as well, at least in prison they would have the gaurds to protect them. Their crime is but a drop in the evils of the world, why kill them then the mass killers and geosidest are walking free? those that have never face a court, those that have killed hundreds of women and children or worse? Do you even know these peoples names?

[Cavern Sniffer]

Originally posted by DawnChaser: A civilized nation implements the will of the people through the system of laws that are determined by the people. This is justice. Once the courts have meted out justice, anything else is considered vigilantism and/or vengeance. Both of which would involve the same type of criminal, abhorrent act that you are all expressing your anger and frustration over here.

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In none of my posts do I mention that I would like to see criminal, vigilante or abhorrent acts committed against these offenders.

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Originally posted by DawnChaser: These two young men may have been reformed, maybe not. Either way, they have completed their sentence, as determined by the judicial process. Let them at least attempt to establish a life with some type of future.

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Whether they have been reformed or not is not the issue. Has their punishment fitted their crime is the issue in my eyes. As for letting them establish a life with some type of future.........well, I'll bet their two year old murdered victim would love the same opportunity to have established his life.

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It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too.
Man, that's a pisser.

I remember very well when I was ten years old, knowing exactly what I was doing when I beat the crap out of schoolmates for nothing more than fun. Boys and girls alike.

Had I done this to a baby at that age, I would full well expect the public to be shocked at such a crime. I would full well expect to be incarcerated for life if not committed to an institution for life.

Being that the crime was committed by children of such a young age, I can see where the death penalty would not be sought, even here in the U.S. where it is legal. Personally, I agree with CP.

To release them back into the public which they so frightened and shamed after spending their growing years in prison is beyond belief IMO.
To know they were given new identities and new lives is even more shocking. It is, IMO, a crime as bad as the one they themselves committed.
They are being hidden from the public for their atrocity against an innocent child.
There are child murderers in the U.S. who will no doubt be up for parole themselves one day.
I doubt that the child murderers in the U.S. would be given the same kind of treatment in their future release(s). I also doubt they will face "mobs" in the event of their release, even though what has been done here, by one boy (age 13) to another much younger child (a four year old, if I remember correctly...raped and strangled by a boy who had been his neighbor and friend...a stick left poking out of his anus and the teenager, going home as if nothing happened) is not far away from what was done in England.
I can only pray that statistics regarding what people in prison learn for their lives on the outside is, in this case, a reverse of what is common and that England is not further horrified by acts these young men might now commit.
The same goes for the children incarcerated in the U.S. for such crimes as well, if they are ever released.

But, they have been released, they have been given new identities and well prepared for lives on the outside, at least monetarily.
Let them be, as the family of the victim wishes because there is nothing anyone can do without being as bad as they themselves are. Honor those who have been so wronged by respecting their wishes not to prolong their agony in this situation.
Time has passed and maybe, just maybe, they have been properly educated and reformed.
See if they can make it up to society by living lives that may be worth something, but, England, don't let it take you by suprise if their newfound freedom bites you in the a$$ in an even more horrific manner.

There is nothing any of us can do but hope and pray for the best.

Moni

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[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 06-28-2001).]

[DawnChaser]

Originally posted by Cavern Sniffer: In none of my posts do I mention that I would like to see criminal, vigilante or abhorrent acts committed against these offenders.

No, you didn't. I included you because you, as well as the others, agree that more should have been done to these two than the justice system has done. I should have addressed your issue separately. Here goes...

Originally, you stated:

Originally posted by Cavern Sniffer: I just wondered if anyone thinks its right and proper to release these two murderers?

Then, after you received a reply that didn't answer your question sufficiently, notably kiwidoc's, you requested that she answer more directly. That done, you proceeded to argue the points. Your question was answered. Let it go.

"Change the topic to "I'm right, and you are all wrong!!"

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[This message has been edited by DawnChaser (edited 06-28-2001).]

[WOLFGIR]

***There is no such thing as an exception to a belief. You either believe in a thing, or you don't. Otherwise, you are being a hypocrite.**

World ain´t always black and white IMHO..

Well this is a very heated debate considering the age of the involved.. It´s hard to know what you really would do, but since the father of the babt that was killed has said his mine in this case, we should respect that. No one has a better say in this case but thoose that were hurt by it..

I know that If I was the father I might have acted different and maybe not, can´t say that now, hard to even imagine what the loss of a child means to you, thats why i stated "Who am I to say" above, since I don´t know what has happened to the two murderers in jail, if they have finally understand what they have done or not..

I´m against death penalty and well even if they were put to jail it still sounds like a public pleasing of retribution to me. These two killers would need to have more of a psyciatric (sorry for the spelling guys and girls) help to be "made over" and well.. To darn hard to tell really..

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Yawning lazywolf dreaming about nice little fairies...zzzzz
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

[Cavern Sniffer]

Originally posted by DawnChaser: Then, after you received a reply that didn't answer your question sufficiently, notably kiwidoc's, you requested that she answer more directly. That done, you proceeded to argue the points. Your question was answered. Let it go. "Change the topic to "I'm right, and you are all wrong!!"

>sigh<
I will respectfully ask that you not put words in my mouth Dawnchaser.
The topic neither needs nor requires changing to a definitive statement. It is perfectly satisfactory as it is. As for agreeing that more should have been done than was, that is true only in so far as a custodial sentence allows. I have no problem with those who think that the sentence meted out is satisfactory. I disregarded your "death sentence for 10 year olds" ramblings in an earlier post as it was far too generalised and I fail to see that many people in this thread have requested such. I am personally against the death sentence full stop. As for Kiwidoc I feel quite sure that she is capable of answering for herself. I was more interested in whether she as a human being, putting aside judicial and political connotations thought that an 8 year sentence for the murder of a baby was sufficient. In that respect I didn't feel the question had been answered.



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It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too.
Man, that's a pisser.

[Waluin]

You guys do realize another reason why the let them out, right?

They were going to get transfered to a young adult facility, effectively exposing them to a violent influenced environment (which would essentially reverse and atrophy any kind of progress made by the government in arresting them and keeping them imprisoned in the first place. If you haven't forgotten, the job of prison is to rehabilitate, not institutionalize. Unfortunately, in this day and age, the line between the two has been conveniently forgotten.)

According to the BRITISH ADMINISTRATION who have handled the boys lives up to this this time, they feel they would evolve better away from that environment. They contend that rehabilitation has been adaquately successful at this stage, which I will adhere to since they have run the show all this time. The changes of them becoming a danger to society if they were ever released (and they would be eventually) would escalate if they came out of an young adult facility.

This is coming directly from the administration, and they know what they are talking about/doing. THEY have seen the boys emotional/social progress, not us. THEY have taken care of monitoring them as they have grown up, not us. THEY know what is going on, and THEY know the correct procedure for handling their violent offenders. Particularly these two due to obvious circumstances-my god, its world news, if anything they would make *damn* sure they are doing the best possible thing.

Now, in terms of personal opinions, we all have a right to feel a certain way about this. Personally, I think they should be locked up forever. BUt that isnt a practical reality, and the jail administration realized this. So rather than release them 25 years from now as hardened jail ex-cons, they release them now and watch them at their own pace. If they step just *this* much out of line, they are in deep shit (the media role being rather potent in this case). I know this from studing some aspects of how they administer parole.

As I forementioned, in terms of personal approval, I don't. Both are bad ideas. The should continue to be locked up far into their lives so they pose no threat.

So in terms of the reality of the situation, this was the right thing to do. Granted, it isn't good, but it was the lesser of two very potent evils.

But when it comes down to the final equation, it really isnt our place to say. (Unless you are a British citizen, then by all means I bow to your setiment beyond my own)


[This message has been edited by Waluin (edited 06-29-2001).]

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Cavern Sniffer: Human to err is very correct. But at 10 years old the cold blooded abduction and murder of a baby is slightly more than erring. Please feel free to comment, no ones gonna get in a fight over another persons beliefs. if you think they should be freed then fine, each to there own. Personally i think they should be doing a mandatory 25 stretch, if nothing else at least it may make Bulgers mum think that justice is being done. How must that poor woman feel knowing that those that murdered her baby are now being given brand new lifes, chances are with better prospects than they may have had if they had never commited murder in the first place. They have been rewarded for murder in my eyes. The cost to the taxpayer is gonna be criminal too, more than keeping em in clink. Wow this made the news in the USA Moridin?

It did make the news here, I remember crying as I heard about that poor baby and the family having to deal with the loss. It was a horrible incident and made more so knowing that the murderers were children. I agree that they should be kept in some form of institution and not sent back out to the world. Was any sort of psychological/emotional testing done to see if they have changed in any way prior to being released? I shudder to think of them doing that again!

One thing, though, I disagree with anyone who suggests dealing out 'justice', meaning to find and kill those two once they are out. The Bulger child will never be brought back by such an action and to my way of thinking, vigilante crimes, ie: murder to pay for murder, are as abominable as the original crimes. More so, in some cases, as the vigilantes are supposedly 'normal' members of society. I don't like to think that murder would become a 'normal' way to handle crime and released criminals.

So Cavern Sniffer, I do agree with you, they should stay locked up. I think the cost to keep them locked up may have been high to taxpayers too, but in the interest of punishment and safety for society...well my vote is not to turn them out again.

Cloudbringer

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Waluin]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: So Cavern Sniffer, I do agree with you, they should stay locked up. I think the cost to keep them locked up may have been high to taxpayers too, but in the interest of punishment and safety for society...well my vote is not to turn them out again.

It is just a pity that such a scenario isn't in the cards, nor would have been.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: So Cavern Sniffer, I do agree with you, they should stay locked up. I think the cost to keep them locked up may have been high to taxpayers too, but in the interest of punishment and safety for society...well my vote is not to turn them out again. Cloudbringer

I've always felt that "it costs us tax money" was one of the stupidest arguements ever anyway ... why the **** do you pay taxes anyway? Surely not only for yourself? That would be egoistical... don't you also pay so the state can try and improve social problems? (or so you hope...)
What kind of arguement is that, 'it costs too much money'?? That money is well spent if it means we can make sure a dangerous criminal will stay locked away forever! Personally I am against capital punishment so to me, locking the worst criminals away for life is the only solution. And now that I'm ranting anyway , I disagree with people who plead for the death penalty because they feel a life sentence is too good for those people...how do you know that? Do you have any idea what it's like to be locked in a small room for the rest of your life? To sit there and know you will never get out? To be alone, all by yourself and having to deal with the fact that you're a monster? I'd say that is pretty tough...which is what they deserve! Some people also feel that they get pampered; first of all I don't think that's true, and secondly, who cares for t.v. privileges if they never will be able to walk outside feely again? I don't think that minor privileges such as a television make the punishment any less effective. The only thing that needs to be watched, is that if someone really committed such horrible crimes that they can't be allowed to be free ever again, we should make sure they really can't manage to get out on parole or get their sentences decreased for good behaviour.


Sorry for putting this in here... I think it's a reaction on the capital punishment thread we had a while ago....never answered to that one because I feel my grasp of English is too limited to write a satisfactory explanation of my opinion.



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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia