Camp X-Ray - The Final Solution?

[Mouse]

Whenever I see arguements for setting aside the rule of law for the sake of expedience, I'm reminded of a passage from the play "A Man for all Seasons" by Robert Bolt. Here it is (adapted to read as narrative):-

"Arrest him!"

"For what?" asked England's Lord High Chancellor, Sir Thomas More. "He's dangerous!" said More's wife. William Roper, Thomas More's son-in-law chimed in, "For all we know he's a spy!" to which his daughter added, "Father, that man's bad!"

Sir Thomas replied, "There's no law against that!"

"There is God's law!" countered the impetuous Roper.

"Then let God arrest him!"

More's wife saw the critical opportunity fading, "While you talk he's gone!"

More looked at his distraught wife. "And go he should, if he were the Devil himself, until he broke the law! This was too much for the son-in-law, who mounted a second challenge: "So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!"

"Yes!" asserted Sir Thomas. "What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?"

"Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!"

"Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down (and you're just the man to do it!), do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"

[Faceman]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Leonis: yeah amazingly enough none of those international bodys is doing much about them are they? as I said before..far as I have heard not one single rescue attempt has been made.

[/QUOTE]-sarcasm-
God you International Human Rights activists. Quit ranting about our actions. If you think something is wrong just invade our country! As long as you don't invade us you're probably not very convinced of your point.
-sarcasm-

Seriously, why should the UN or any other western country send commandos into an country which they have excellent diplomatic relations with. They sure tried to signal that they don't like this unlawful situation but after all the US still is the most powerful Western country.

P.S.: I remember the US administration stating that if US citizens were brought before the International Court of Justice in The Hague THEY would send commandos to retrieve them.
So maybe we should go from "innocent until proven guilty in court" to "guilty until rescued by special forces"

[Indemaijinj]

But what is all this bickering about the US contravening international law (and general fairness) worth when the protesters have no way to enforce their law.


Face it, the US government has almost no incentive to follow any of these rules of conduct, and there is no one around to make them so.

The prisoners are condemned to die by virtue of their weakness or stupidity. If innocent, by their weakness because they have no one of any consequence supporting them. If guilty, both by means of their weakness (the terrorist organisations might be mighty in causing semi-random death, but they cannot protect their members adequately) and stupitidy, since we all agree that carrying out so atrocious terrorist acts against the world's mightiest country is extremely and utterly stupid.

[Moiraine]

Ditto Mouse ! [img]graemlins/jumpclap.gif[/img]

If we allow people who have not been judged guilty by a lawful trial to nonetheless suffer penalties - then, my friends, one day, it can happen to each and everyone of us ...

[Donut]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Either we got the goods on 'em or we are violating their rights. I think relatives in Afghanistan should flood us with habeas corpus ("produce the body") writs. This is one of the oldest ideas in the theory of justice. Surely you can't defend this behavior. Go ahead, try.

It's not only Afghanistan. It's thought that there are citizens of up to 36 countries being held, including 9 Britons. Habeas corpus won't help, they are in legal limbo land. I always wondered why the US had a base on Cuba!

[Donut]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: I continue to believe that they do not qualify as prisoners of war, and their initial incarceration was completely justified, but I also know that the time has come to do something other than hold them.

There was a war and they are prisoners. Playing games with words doesn't change that.

[norompanlasolas]

not being a native english speaker always gives me problems when i read certain posts... what is the english word when you are defending the undefendable?

[Mouse]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Ditto Mouse ! [img]graemlins/jumpclap.gif[/img] If we allow people who have not been judged guilty by a lawful trial to nonetheless suffer penalties - then, my friends, one day, it can happen to each and everyone of us ...

Quite so. Just as more food for thought, those who support extra-judicial actions might like to ponder these famous words:-

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

[Ronn_Bman]

Donut, you'll have to explain the symantics problem to those who wrote the Geneva Convention, which sets out very specific qualification rules for POWs. Under the rules, those held at Camp X-Ray are not POWs. Of course, this point has been argued back and forth, but one thing that is completely clear under the GC is that just because there is a war that does not make everyone captured a POW.

Of course the phrase POW can be used in the generic sense, as opposed to the GC sense, but that argument would be based on symantics. [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT because I'm italics impaired. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 06-13-2003, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Why is there not commando raids on Camp X-ray from all free and offended nations??

Because we're all scared of you.