Whats the point?

[Barry the Sprout]

Some of you may know that I am heavily involved in Left Wing groups. I campaign for what I beleive in and I try and persuade other people. I will go to meetings and speak, I will hand out leaflets, I will put up posters and I will defend what I beleive in to anyone who cares to listen.

But I am starting to wonder why. Me and some friends recently tried to get Bacardi boycotted from the student union bars here at the LSE. We failed hopelessly, which we expected. That wasn't the annoying thing. What was annoying is that some guys tried to rub our noses in it by tabling a motion titled "There's Latin Spirit in Every One!" which would give £500 to the bar in order to give free Bacardi to people next Wednesday. It came very close to passing - the only reason it didn't was because it is actually illegal for our union to do that so it had to be withdrawn.

Thy argued in favour of it by saying "We are at University to have a good time. We want to get drunk and stick two fingers up to all those people who think its fun to stand around handing out leaflets.". This reeeeeeeeally depressed me. I do not do it for fun, I do it because it might effect something. It might make someones life better. We can all have a good time at Uni because we live in the UK and have a bit of money. Some people aren't as lucky and it looks like I am the only one who cares. I am studying at the London School of Economic and Political Science and no one gives a damn about politics anymore. Caring about other people has become so passe it is just ridiculous.

I tried to go and get absolutely trollied at the Union bar last night to take my mind off it but I couldn't get in - the irony of it. I ended up in Leicester Square at 1 am worryingly sober and still extremly depressed.

I live my life on the basis that it can help other people. Why am I bothering if no one wants to listen.

This is one of the things that contributed to me rising to the bait when posts in the war forum pissed me off. Normally I try and argue with them but just recently, like the topic says, I have been thinking "Whats the point".

[Ronn_Bman]

You believe what you believe because it's what you feel is right. Nothing wrong with that! Don't lose faith because others don't see some of your points or reasoning. If you believe what you do is good, then you shouldn't worry what others think or try to judge how successful your actions are.

The point is, you believe in helping others, and you act on your beliefs. That is a good thing [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Dont give up! Believe me, I know all about the pit of despair that comes with trying to manifest social/political change. Being one who is active in resisting the drug war, I know how it feels to put alot of effort into something and gain little or no results. But it is worth it! People are generally intelligent and some do listen and learn.

In my case the 10,000,000+ people who have been incarcerated in the United States in the last 40 years because of the oppressive canibis laws is one of the things that keeps me at it.

Affirm what makes your cause(s) worth doing, and remember if you do nothing about injustice or give up, it will just continue and grow even worse. I'd rather be laid to rest knowing I tried and failed, than did nothing at all. Good luck! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Cheetah]

Barry, I'm really sorry you feel so awful. I know what you're going through - I sometimes get phases when I feel like that.

Don't get TOO angry at the students. A lot of people, quite understandably, can't handle the mess that is today's world. As NGOs and activists uncover more and more social and environmental abuses, all over the world, touching every corner of our lives, it's all too much for most people. Life is already stressful and difficult enough, they reason, they have all the sadness and pain they can deal with just within their immediate group of family and friends - there's homeless people on every corner, charities are constantly asking for time, attention, money... The newspapers are full of bad news.. Now the news about the environment is really starting to break - let's face it, that is terrifying... The horrors of what is going on in the third world, and the part the west is playing in that is now starting to become mainstream knowledge, and we are all implicated because we are all consumers... Sept 11, and its aftermath, - the fear that has been born from that... the list is endless. There are so many issues, so much fear... most people can't cope. They turn away. They don't want to know. Its total overload.

The problem with trying to open people's eyes to 'issues' is that you're basically bringing bad news. People have had enough doom and gloom. They feel there's been no let up since nuclear first became an issue.

So many people make themselves feel better and more secure by dismissing us as harbingers of doom, and what we are saying as misinformation/sentimental rubbish/malicious destructiveness/ communist pap. They turn their mental knob to filter out the information we offer, prefering instead to buy into to the rose coloured glasses view of the world that is thrown at them 24 hours a day by advertising and some sections of the media.

They know that it's all roseate crap, of course, (well, most of them do, not all, especially not in the third world, where advertising is often accepted by unsophisticated audiences as the true portrayal of how the West is. But you know all that..... [img]smile.gif[/img] ).... but it's comforting crap. In the worlds created by advertising, all is well, no starving kids, no aids epidemic, no rapacious multinations getting cosy with dictatorshipos, no hatred, no horror, no war.

You can see which of these options would be more attractive. And it aint the one you're offering!

I don't think its that people don't care, deep down. Well, actually, no, you're right, many of them don't. But the reason is often that they are so numbed out and stressed out by the lives they are living to make the rent and keep ahead, that their capacity for feeling has been desensitised.

I find also that a lot of young people have been so inundated with consumer 'lifestyle' messages, that nothing else can get through. 'Having it all' is the message they've been bombarded with since they were kids. They don't see why a lot of winging left wingers should come in with hard reality and spoil their party. What's it got to do with me? they say. ■■■■ off, you miserable git. Okay, people are having a hard time in the third world. Not my fault, not my problem, not my responsibility.

Shame you don't live in Brighton. It's really encouraging to see the sense of community here, and the depth of people's concern for one another. It's a great tonic when you're feeling down! Also there are more left wing groups here than you can shake a stick at. I think you'd feel right at home!

[huma]

Well said Silver Cheetah,I beleive you just hit the proverbial nail right square on the head.

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by huma:
Well said Silver Cheetah,I beleive you just hit the proverbial nail right square on the head.

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Thanks huma! What we need is a more positive activism. Rather than focusing on the problems, use them as the launch pad to creative new solutions. There is a tendency (I do it too! especially when feeling downhearted) to focus down really hard on the negativity of what's going on, which brings everyone down, including the person doing the focusing.

I read a great book called Imagining America in the 21st century (or something like that), which was very visionary indeed. It left me with a feeling of hope for the future, rather than fear and dread at what is happening.

There are several groups in Britain who are quite good that way. They use creativity and humour rather than anger and despair to raise awareness and get people involved in change. I think many of the various 'change the world' type movements are beginning to wake up to the fact that a different approach might be better.

It's difficult though. You run the risk of glossing over what the current state of affairs is to present an ultra positive alternative, and it could all end up sounding like just another improbable advert for the 'great future' brand if care is not taken. Also, we run the risk of people saying, well, that doesn't seem so bad, why bother? Like how do you get people to act without shocking the pants off of them? (with the consequent negative effects that I already went into above...)


Fine lines, eh?

[Yorick]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
Some of you may know that I am heavily involved in Left Wing groups. I campaign for what I beleive in and I try and persuade other people. I will go to meetings and speak, I will hand out leaflets, I will put up posters and I will defend what I beleive in to anyone who cares to listen.

But I am starting to wonder why. Me and some friends recently tried to get Bacardi boycotted from the student union bars here at the LSE. We failed hopelessly, which we expected. That wasn't the annoying thing. What was annoying is that some guys tried to rub our noses in it by tabling a motion titled "There's Latin Spirit in Every One!" which would give £500 to the bar in order to give free Bacardi to people next Wednesday. It came very close to passing - the only reason it didn't was because it is actually illegal for our union to do that so it had to be withdrawn.

Thy argued in favour of it by saying "We are at University to have a good time. We want to get drunk and stick two fingers up to all those people who think its fun to stand around handing out leaflets.". This reeeeeeeeally depressed me. I do not do it for fun, I do it because it might effect something. It might make someones life better. We can all have a good time at Uni because we live in the UK and have a bit of money. Some people aren't as lucky and it looks like I am the only one who cares. I am studying at the London School of Economic and Political Science and no one gives a damn about politics anymore. Caring about other people has become so passe it is just ridiculous.

I tried to go and get absolutely trollied at the Union bar last night to take my mind off it but I couldn't get in - the irony of it. I ended up in Leicester Square at 1 am worryingly sober and still extremly depressed.

I live my life on the basis that it can help other people. Why am I bothering if no one wants to listen.

This is one of the things that contributed to me rising to the bait when posts in the war forum pissed me off. Normally I try and argue with them but just recently, like the topic says, I have been thinking "Whats the point".

---

Barry, for what it's worth I'll put in my opinion and experiences and you can take it or leave it.

When I was at uni I had similar motivations. A lot of us want to "change the world" and then get depressed or disempowered when seemingly nothing eventuates.

However I think the only problem is perception and focus of energy.

I think what's needed is at once a broader and also smaller view.

If you want to make others happy, think small. Start with individuals rather than masses. (Which are after all a collection of individuals).

Creating music gives a great analogy for problem solving and change. You continually have to focus in, on each individual note, and then focus out - to hear it in context to make the piece or part work.

Continual shifting focus.

You can suceed in making people happy immediately. Strangers, friends, comrades, lecturers, students all.

But what makes people happy? Is not freedom of choice, freedom to make mistakes part of that? For example, is it not better to get people to choose not to buy Bacardi at the SU, rather than blanketly removing their choice not to do so?

Consumer choice ends up making the most impact on a product anyway.


The other perspective is a much larger one.

There is a society Brian Eno is part of called "The Long Now".

They've done things like built a clock with a second hand that tics every year, a minute hand that clicks every decade, and an hour hand that moves every century.

They've also got permanent radio signal in every known language beaming out warnings about nuclear waste in areas of the American desert.

For future generations. Not just ours.

The point being, that what we see as permanent can be transitory. We don't see grass or hair grow without taking a longer perspective.

Same with humanity.

An individual can and does impact their world incredibly. Whether they live to see, or are aware of those changes is another matter altogether.

You have no idea for example, whether those who now thumb their noses at your efforts now, will, once they are out of uni, possess a different view of your actions. Time and memory can shift ones attitudes to an event.

I try and make the individuals I personally know happier with a kind word. Encouragement, going the extra mile for them, and where asked, giving an opinion. I send my consumer dollar wherever possible to products that are responsible, but choose to live in the world, and not handicap myself totally by dropping out of society.

It is an imperfect world, and we are flawed beings. But we can, and do make it better for others in the process.

Hope you feel better Barry.

Hugh.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
They use creativity and humour rather than anger and despair to raise awareness and get people involved in change. I think many of the various 'change the world' type movements are beginning to wake up to the fact that a different approach might be better.

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That is fantastic news.

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


If you want to make others happy, think small. Start with individuals rather than masses. (Which are after all a collection of individuals).

... But what makes people happy? Is not freedom of choice, freedom to make mistakes part of that? For example, is it not better to get people to choose not to buy Bacardi at the SU, rather than blanketly removing their choice not to do so?

Consumer choice ends up making the most impact on a product anyway.

---

On the 'think small' and 'individuals point - yes, of course, this is valid. One's actions in normal everyday situations in normal everyday life are of the highest importance. I'm sure most activists would agree with you... what I say is, why stop there?

The point about consumer choices is that they are made on the basis of the information available. When it comes to products made by workers who have no rights, and who live appalling lives for less than a living wage, the companies in question are generally quite keen that consumers don't get information about how labour is treated. They have a vested interest in keeping quiet.

That means consumers may be making choices, but they are not making INFORMED CHOICES. That word 'informed' is all important here.

The first aim of activism ALWAYS is to bear witness. In other words, to make previously suppressed information available so people can make those informed choices. To TELL what is happening.

Hence the doom and gloom associated with activism - when everything in the garden is lovely, then there is no need for anyone to bear witness. Activism only happens when abuse (whether of people or of our environment)is taking place.

Barry tried to tell people the facts, the whys and wherefores of a particular situation. They didn't want to know, hence his despondency. You are right about people's potential to change, though. I didn't give a good toss about human rights or the environment when I was younger. Too damaged. It was hard enough to keep myself afloat, never mind worry about anyone else. And a lot of people are coming from that same place. I totally understand that.

On the point of removing people's choice - I can't really see a problem with that when it comes to products that are made by people who do not even have the right to organise (ie. unionise) for better working conditions and a living wage because it is illegal to do so, and any attempt to do so will land them in jail, or worse.

I would like to see legislation laid down by America and European countries, laying down labour and environmental regulations that have to be adhered to by companies, both in the developed AND the developing world. The currently fashionable voluntary codes of practice so beloved of companies such as Nike are written by advertising bods trying to project a positive image of the companies. Most codes of practice are not independently monitored. As such they are useless, and in fact are often activly deceptive.

BTW, you might be interested to know that some universities in America have accomplished a lot by refusing to have their logoed sportswear and so on made by companies who use sweatshop labour in production. In doing this, they impose their choice upon students (many of who actually campaigned for this in the first place - however, that doesn't apply to the students who joined afterwards.) Is that wrong? I don't think so.

One last point - you talk about freedom of choice making people happy. For uncounted millions in the developing world, freedom of choice is a meaningless concept. Essentially, what both Barry and I are interested in is that THESE people should have some freedom of choice also.

For us in the West, happiness may be linked, amongst other things, with the freedom to purchase what we want, where we want it. For others, happiness might have something to do with a living wage, enough to eat, and freedom from fear and ongoing abuse. Just a thought...

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


On the 'think small' and 'individuals point - yes, of course, this is valid. One's actions in normal everyday situations in normal everyday life are of the highest importance. I'm sure most activists would agree with you... what I say is, why stop there?

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Never said to stop there. Aim high, expect low, and all is a bonus for you'll hit somewhere in between.

However one can receive immediate success from individuals. On larger pictures we can often never know, so we shouldn't get depressed.

Think famous artists who died in poverty and obscurity. Think Marco Polo, derided for telling falsehoods later proved truth. Leonardo De Vinci's inventions and discoveries.

The Apostles and Christians who were horrifically publicly excecuted yet who's calmness in death meant thousands converted, hungry for their peace.

Mandela. who spent half a life in gaol, seemingly destined to die in prison, cause failing, yet who's very presence in prison galvinised world support and changed his country forever.

Think the average Joe, who mentions to his mate the value of buying Dolphin safe tuna, free range eggs, and products not tested on animals. Then his mate passing on the word, then his mate.

Though it's illegal for Christians here in Singapore to publicly evangelise, this Church here of 12,000 odd is made up of 80% converts from Buddhism/Taoism (I saw 1756 people convert in one night last Easter) purely as a result of individuals simply being who they are. Their simple excercising of love, motivation, generosity and lifespark impacts on their families and all around them. No charismatic preachers "changing the world", just individuals living their lives sharing some love.

No limit to what you can do, but unless focus begins small - at individuals - how can one change millions, millions of individuals?

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