A word or two about monks samurais and knights

[Sir Kenyth]

I've noticed quite a few threads about these characters leaning towards their real life counterparts. In these threads, people seem to think that movie and game depictions are true to life. Let's talk a bit more realistic about martial arts and the sword saints. Yes, they were highly disciplined and trained. Yes, they were quick. That does not make them superhuman or exempt from the laws of science. Things were developed for reasons. Bare hand martial arts were developed because the people did not have access to weapons. Many of the unusual martial arts weapons are converted farming implements. Armor and weapons were developed, quite simply, because they worked. Heavier swords were developed to deal with light armor. Spiked hammers, battle axes, and flanged mace were developed to deal with heavy plate armors which were all but impervious to slashing and stabbing. If you were to pit a sword saint or a shaolin monk one on one with an equally trained elite European knight, the knight would likely win. I can hear the dissent already. Why, you ask, do I think this? It's not a matter of honed skill, but a matter of physics. The classic katana is a slashing weapon and not effective at piercing steel plate. The knights weapons (broad sword, axe, flanged mace, etc.), on the other hand would destroy the samurais beautiful bamboo and woven cloth armor within a few hits because the material is designed to withstand slashing, not hacking and bashing. An unarmored monk would REALLY have a bad time. A pole axe or long spear would be his only hope and a slim one at that. The best weapons against armored knights are high powered projectile weapons. Heavy draw bows, crossbows, and firearms were developed for this very reason! Hardened steel spikes and bullets have very little trouble penetrating light steel plate at sufficient velocity. Which is why an armored knight would stand little chance against a modern soldier. It's all in the science of fighting. The correct tool for the job. Remember though, all the equipment in the world cannot compensate for a case of "Dumb-ass-itis". The mongols proved that when they defeated numerous armies and knights with guerrilla tactics, light calvary and stout bows firing armor peircing arrows. The headstrong and disorganized knights charged blindly into many ambushes where they were peppered with armor piercing arrows from high ground. Completely helpless because they could not reach their attackers, who kept backing up to stay out of hand to hand range. I'm sure the knights cried "Dishonorable!" all the way to defeat. The development of effective ranged weapons and ranged weapon tactics made the armored knight, and all other hand to hand troops, obsolete.

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The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

[Gedd]

although, if your going to talk about the physics of it, you d0 have to realise that full plate mail is **incredibly** heavy. more often then not knights wearing it could hardly move.

[Avatar]

I have seen Kights doing hand stands in Plate Mail.

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[Sir Kenyth]

Not so! A common misconception. Only 40-50 lbs on average if I remember correctly. That weight is also distributed across the body evenly. Maille armor is actually heavier and more cumbersome for it's size. The finely crafted full plate armor was the pinnacle of the armoring craft. Custom fit and made, it took some months to make. No two sets were exactly alike. It also had an extraordinary cost. Buying armor of this calibre was an investment like buying a new car or house is now. Only the elite nobility wore this type of armor. In the finer sets, the plates were built to interlock impenetrably if you tucked your chin and twisted/bent your arms at a certain angle. Broad swords were also lighter than commonly thought. 2 1/2-5 lbs. on average. Edges were also only moderately sharp, as a fine edge would surely chip when striking metal armor or weapons. You were as likely to break ribs with a broad sword as cut. The broad sword was all right against maille, but not particularly effective at penetrating plate. This is when the heavy bashing/hacking weapons became popular. Whether or not you had metal plate, a heavy blunt blow to the head or a joint would still concuss or break bone. A spike was often used for penetration power. The lance is a good example of a mounted spike weapon. The war hammers primary striking surface is actually the spike on the other side. The battle axe generally had a spike on the other side also. The flanged mace was quite popular and effective against plate.

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The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

[Zoltan]

In real life,
Plate mail (and noble knights wearing plate mail) sucks. Because it's unbelieveable heavy, it disincreases your movement ability. A schitar or cutlass and a light but protective armour (which made of elephant's ears-do you know who are using these armors?) can be much better for fighting. And we all know that the heavy infantries (crusaders) had very hard time during the crusades.

[Zoltan]

In real life,
Plate mail (and noble knights wearing plate mail) sucks. Because it's unbelieveable heavy, it disincreases your movement ability. A schitar or cutlass and a light but protective armour (which made of elephant's ears-do you know who are using these armors?) can be much better for fighting. And we all know that the heavy infantries (crusaders) had very hard time during the crusades in medieval age.

[Sir Kenyth]

The crusaders suffered for reasons that effect all armies on the move. No supply line. They were suffering from starvation and dehydration constantly. The heat in the desert made wearing anything besides loose thin fabric unbearable. It was a very poorly thought out campaign until the end. Feudal Europe seemed to be plagued by poor planning. In the end they still won the seige. Some decent leadership finally arrived if I remember the story right. In my opinion, the crusades were somewhat senseless and mostly fueled by religious fervor instead of war planning. Many innocent towns and villages along the way were sacked to provide for the moving armies.

[Tancred]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: the classic katana is a slashing weapon and not effective at piercing steel plate. The knights weapons (broad sword, axe, flanged mace, etc.), on the other hand would destroy the samurais beautiful bamboo and woven cloth armor within a few hits because the material is designed to withstand slashing, not hacking and bashing.

You wha? I'd like to see the broadsword - a heavy steel club with an edge, effectively - cleave through two inches of solid, hardened wood and still have much hitting power with a blunt edge. As for the katana, these things were incredibly dense, very well-balanced and terrifyingly sharp. I have seen katana simply cleave through steel plate with a decent swing, quite literally sheering through it - and not take more than a few nicks. I reckon samurai and knights would be far more evenly matched than you think.
As for the ninja, chances are he'd would simply run, hide, and come back to kill the knight while he slept in camp, unarmoured.

[floyd]

exactly. no monk or ninja would stand toe-to-toe with a knight and duke it out. He would go 'metal gear' style and slit his throat or break his neck making no noise.

as for the samurai vs. knight argument, it would all depend on the quality of the katana vs the quality of the knight's plate. and btw, that 40-50 pounds for a full suit of plate (+ shield too?) is a total joke. maybe 'carbon fiber' plate...

[250]

there are a lot ways to beat your enemy.

maybe plated mail knights form a unision can defeat a grouped monk (whatever) however, in one to one combat. a monk would use tactics much smarter than attack head-on

if I am the monk, I will use the advantage of my speed. maybe I will try to tripple the knight over, and do some shit to him when his back is expose, whatever