Encumberance Issues

[Otto]

In basic D&D the issue of encumberance was mitigated by the 1st level Elf/Magic-user spell, "floating disk" (back then all elves were fighter/mages):

Floating Disk
Level: 1
Range: 6'
Duration: 6 turns

This spell creates an invisible platform about the size of a small round shield which can carry up to 5000 coins (500 lbs) of weight. It cannot be created in a place occupied by another object. The floating disc will be created at the height of the caster's waist and remain at that height, following the caster wherever he or she goes. If the caster goes further than 6 feet from the disc, it will automatically follow, with a movement rate equal to the caster's. When the spell duration ends, the floating disc will disappear, suddenly dropping anything that was on it.

I wonder if the designers could have implemented this spell in the game somehow...

[NobleNick]

Otto,

Has anyone officially welcomed you to the IWD forum? If not, please accept mine:

[img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . WELCOME to the Icewind Dale forum!! . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

jmsteven, I agree, they do seem a bit unrealistic; though it doesn't bother me.

As a young pup, I used to hike the Cascade mountains with a 70 pound pack plus clothing = 85 pounds total. We'd drop packs and wade the lakes to fish for an hour, then pick up packs and schlog onward (and usually upward, it seemed, and often in that good old Washington rain). I like to imagine that the IWD characters with STR=CON=18 could have buried me in such hikes, and that their scout would give them enough time to ditch encumbrances before a fight; so for the fantasy world I have created it's not TOO far-fetched.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Otto]

Hello, and thank you for the welcome. I would think there would be a large gap between absolute weight capacity and unencumberance limits. According to the 2nd ed. Player's Handbook, "encumberance" is defined as the amount that can be carried without slowing down the character's movement rate.

I'm a backpacker, myself, and I even took a semester off from college so I could spend 5 months hiking the Appelachean Trail (2,160 miles from Georgia to Maine). My best guess would be that my movement rate slowed when I carried more than 50lbs. At times I carried up to about 75 lbs, but I felt "encumbered" by that much weight. This was most evident when I looked at my feet more than at what was around me.

The encumberance and maximum press limits are admittedly a little "larger-than-life" in AD&D. Even in the AD&D Player' Handbook, it states:

"In 1987, the world record for lifting a weight overhead in a single move was 465 pounds. A heroic fighter with Strength 18/00 can lift up to 480 pounds the same way and he can hold it overhead for a longer time!"

The fact that the strongest fighter in AD&D can be a little stronger than an actual person is not such a stretch for the imagination. However, the encumberance limits in IWD are exaggerated even beyond the limits in the Player's Handbook. For example, the "larger-than-life" encumberance limit in the PH for STR=18/01 is 135 lbs, but in IWD it's 220 lbs! That's a big difference. I would have liked the 2nd AD&D rules more faithfully implemented.

[ 11-05-2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]

[Calagari]

Kudos on the title change Nick

And Oh yes Welcome to the forum Otto I hope you find a home here.

[jmsteven]

After considering the submissions by Calagari and Otto, I renounce my low-end weight limit of 30lbs. Mythological literature is actually filled with accounts of people with supernatural strength, and I see no reason why such people wouldn't exist in Forgotten Realms. The earliest example of this is in the Epic of Gilgamesh. When Gilgamesh and Enkidu journey to the Cedar Forest to fight the giant, Humbaba, each carries a greatsword weighing 120 lbs, and a greataxe weighing 180 lbs. In later literature, such as the Iliad, the anti-hero, Achilles, is described as having the strength of three men, and carries weapons no ordinary man could wield. Odysseus also has supernatural strength and could string a bow that no other man could. Similar examples are also found in Beowulf, the Story of Diedre, the Song of Roland, the Tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and other mythologies.

[Otto]

The difference is that Gilgamesh, Enkidu, Achilles, and Odysseus had divine lineage, which accounted for their supernatural strength. However, Beowulf was purely mortal and "exceptionally" strong, so I guess I agree with your point.

[galdur]

I think, rules must be simply enough to feel like it is the game. If they are too complicated, it may be discouraging for newbies in that game.
Look even to armor class. One attribute simulate all defense - dexterity, dodging, magic shielding and physical armor barrier (armors).

The game doesn't check, whether you hit him or not, and if yes, then armor is reducing damage, ...but simple, if you have defended against attack or not. It is simple, not realistic, like all rules in game should be.

Same for encumberance. If you want be realistic, so even switch to other weapon or even look into your backpack should cost some time (e.g. 1 round). But then, the game will be not so playable like IWD, isn't it?

I am agreeing with Aerich. IWD allows to score maximum attributes very easy. If IWD would be on-line game, you wouldn't get 18 of some attribute so easily. Only 1 of 10 players for example would have so luck, he score 18.

[Otto]

Originally posted by galdur: I think, rules must be simply enough to feel like it is the game. If they are too complicated, it may be discouraging for newbies in that game. Look even to armor class. One attribute simulate all defense - dexterity, dodging, magic shielding and physical armor barrier (armors). The game doesn't check, whether you hit him or not, and if yes, then armor is reducing damage, ...but simple, if you have defended against attack or not. It is simple, not realistic, like all rules in game should be. Same for encumberance. If you want be realistic, so even switch to other weapon or even look into your backpack should cost some time (e.g. 1 round). But then, the game will be not so playable like IWD, isn't it? I am agreeing with Aerich. IWD allows to score maximum attributes very easy. If IWD would be on-line game, you wouldn't get 18 of some attribute so easily. Only 1 of 10 players for example would have so luck, he score 18.

You raise some interesting points. I agree that the Armor Class system is not as sophisticated as it should be. Heavy plate armor makes the warrior easier to hit but harder to damage. A better system would be to apply "damage resistance" instead of (or in addition to) an AC bonus when wearing various types of armor, and not just damage resistance for rare magical armor/shields.

The 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons rules, as implemented in IWD2, are a little better at distinguishing among different types of AC bonuses, and limiting the amount of dexterity bonus that can be applied when wearing different types of armor. However, there is no complete distinction between getting hit and getting damage.

I disagree, however, that the rules in the game should be simple, and not too realistic. Playing D&D via computer has the potential for very complex modeling of a fantastic world, and this is precisely what separates the IWD and BG series from arcade-type games, like Gauntlet. For D&D fans, the CRP games become more enjoyable as the complexity of the virtual world more closely mirrors the pen & paper experience.