Concerning Cheese

[LennonCook]

I have explained this on another forum aswell, so I am quite rehearsed in these lines. The ignorance of the following facts realy makes me want to kill people. Ofcourse, I then realise I cant because 1. Its illegal, and 2. Most of them live in a different country, and those who do live in the same country dont seem to live anywhere near me... Be warned that the following may contain spoilers.

Cheese- Is it, or isnt it ??

Cheese in Baldurs Gate 2, is not using traps to kill Firkraag or the admantite Golum, it is not using potions to buff up your fighters. And it is definately not using protection from undead / magic against Kangaxx.

These are all abilities supplied within the game, and thus cannot be cheesy as they were put in there to be used. Cheese is taking advantage of bugs and glitches in the game, a good example of this is the fake talk strategy.

Also, cheese is definately not using the CLUA Console, Shadow Keeper or IEEP to buff up your characters and give them more HP or weapons that arent available for you at the point of the game where you are, such as using the Cromme Fayer in irenicus' dungeon. These things fall under a whole different category, which is known most commonly as cheating. Also, on that note, these things were designed for something, if not cheating- if you have played through the game and beat it legitamately a few times, it makes sense that you should be able to play it as you like. Also, they can be used to get past annoying little bugs which deprive you of what you have earned. An example of this is where sometimes the acorns in Irenicus' dungeon dont show up when you kill the durager (sp?)carrying them.

Now going back to cheese. The things mentioned above to not be cheese, are quite simply not cheese. Since they are abilities given within the game, they are quite legitimate. These do not have to be used in your game, but they can be. Whether or not you use things like this should not be because of your like or dislike of cheese, but rather your playing style. If you want to use them, you can and others here have no reason to ridicule you because you have used cheesy tactics. You should be able to play as you want to, so long as it sticks to the rules of the game.
So dont be afraid to post your tactics to kill Kangaxx or Firkraag if they use traps, or protection from the appropriate thing- you shouldnt have to be.

[Auraleus]

Well said... here is a question for you though:

Is using doorways as choke points considered cheese?

In a way, using doorways to fight enemies 1 at a time has been a gaming strategy for eons... BUT considering the sizes that some mobs have, the game engine won't ALLOW them to move through the doors.. aka the golems in de'Arnse (sp?) keep...

Would say... pulling the golem to the doorway then throwing spells at it and ranged attacks from the other side of the door be considered cheese or a valid use of the game environment?

[LennonCook]

If the door is there, which in this situation it is, then you can make use of it. AFAICS, some doors were put there for that very reason!! So, no it is not cheese, as it uses something given to you in the game. It doesnt take advantage of bugs, but simply makes use of what is already there.

[Barry the Sprout]

I think you have a completely different definition of cheese to the one I have been working with. My definition of cheese is something that is within the game and therefore perfectly legal (not cheating) yet still spoils the difficulty of the game. So I would definately put using traps to kill Frikraag as cheese - it is an extremely hard fight and using traps bypasses the difficulty alltogether. Cheese is an inherently subjective concept for me, it is using the resources given to you in a way that makes the game daft. It mostly concerns where you come from on an RP level, are you going to seriously believe that your party killed the dragon by innocously setting traps all around it then getting it angry from a distance?

Don't get me wrong, cheese has a place in the game as much as cheating does. I have often used cheese tactics when unable to get past a point in the game. But I would still class them as cheese. What you have posted above is not the definitive account of cheese, merely your version or opinion on what cheese is. Mine appears to differ from yours quite strongly. I live in Islington if you now wish to come and kill me...

[Morgan_Corbesant]

bah, its only cheese..... hell, it isnt chease. what the hell is the point of learning traps if you dont use them. you may as well not cast spells as a mage or any spell casting class for that matter. timestop, comet, etc, THAT is cheese if you want to talk about cheesy abilities built into the game. if traps are cheese, then so is backstab, or poison weapon, or quivering palm, hell STONESKIN!!! besides, cheese is good, especially with a good wine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[img]graemlins/mage1.gif[/img]

[LennonCook]

As I said, i mentioned this at a different forum first, so what I have said is not accurate to everyone... but that is the general meaning of cheese. I do agree with your statement, but I also stand by my own. This can be a very confusing subject, and this was designed mainly to stop people putting (insert rude word here) on each other because their tactic is 'cheesy' when it obviously isnt...

And with setting traps around a Dragon... your setting the traps while its asleep, then waking it up so it steps on em all!!

[Kaz]

I agree with Barry. You can't simply define any one tactic as cheese, it depends on how it's used. Setting traps in front of a doorway, then luring the enemy in, isn't cheese IMHO - it's the way traps are meant to be used. Setting traps in front of a dragon by exploiting the fact that the dragon is neutral until attacked is something else altogether. Casting Magic Resistance, then Harm is also cheese IMO since it exploits the fact that Magic Resistance SETS someone's magic resistance, it doesn't RAISE it. Even if you just do Harm, and it works, it completely bypasses the fact that this is a dragon, it's supposed to be a difficult fight. Stoneskin, potions, etc. make the fight easier, but don't completely erase the difficulty.

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Kaz ]

[LennonCook]

If you think about it, using Magic Resistance isnt cheese because that is the way the spell works. Using harm against the Dragon- you have the spell, it is useless against little oponents, so why not use it against the big ones ??

As for traps around a Dragon... it realy depends on how close they are to it. If they are within its visual range, and you set them while its neutral then yes, that would be classed as cheese because it infact takes advantage of a bug which causes the Dragon to not see them.

Using the same tactic though against the Gollems in De'Arnise is NOT cheese- they are inactive, turned off if you like. THey cant see it.

[Kaz]

quote:

---

Originally posted by LennonCook:
If you think about it, using Magic Resistance isnt cheese because that is the way the spell works.

---

The spell is meant for use on FRIENDLIES, I believe that it is a bug that it LOWERS high magic resistance. So that would count as using a glitch - cheese by your and my estimation.

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaz:


The spell is meant for use on FRIENDLIES, I believe that it is a bug that it LOWERS high magic resistance. So that would count as using a glitch - cheese by your and my estimation.

---

If you read the spell description you will find it acually accounts for the fact that it can lower the resistance not raise it in some cases. So in theory I have no problem with using it instead of Lower Resistance where possible. What I have a problem with is using it on someone who blatantly wouldn't let you if the AI were any better. I really can't see Firkraag, one of the wisest and oldest beings in existance, standing there while you cast a spell on him without him at least questioning what you are doing. Any good DM would make you pay heavily for doing something that stupid in a normal PnP game.

And the thing about setting the traps when they are asleep... I can see that happening so fine. But Firkraag is not asleep, you have just finished talking to him. It is the equivalent of saying:

PC - "Excuse me do you mind if I cut your head off? You're AI is set to neutral at present after all..."
Firkraag - "Why not at all! Where do you want me to put my head?"
PC - "There's a chopping block just down here.".

*Thwack!*

Can't see it happening myself somehow.