Realism vs Effect

[theGrimm]

I am inspired to this post by a parallel one, but decided to create a new one so as to avoid putting THAT one off track.

Possibly because this is a game, we seem most concerned with how an item might affect the game, rather than how realistic that item might be within the context of the game. Or rather, within the context of the game world.

So a sword that dispels-on-hit may not be seen as particularly uber, since it doesn't radically affect the gameplay, but a ring that causes insta-death might, because it prevents a character from dying permanently within a certain scope of gameplay. (Opinions may differ; I am only making the comparison as an example.) Yet the one could probably be created so much more easily than the other. (Definitely mym opinion.)

It has been said before, not by me, that BG II is a powergamers game. Beholders are suddenly free experience thanks to a shield you can conveniently buy at the corner store. Virtually any solo character can kill a red dragon who Gorian and his harper buddies only managed to wound and chase off.

I can imagine that the PC might have the secret bhaalspawn ability "Gravitate to Massively Powerful Items", but I still have to shake my head when I see some of the items available at a glance.

(When I roleplay, that is. I have no such compunctions when I powergame.)

I have to wonder...how easy would it be, exactly, to craft a shield that permanently reflects beholder rays? Or a cload that absorbs all spell damage. According D&D rules, how difficult would it be to craft a cursed ring that does 20 piercing damage to the user when put on? How about a sword that fires Melfs Acid arrows whenever the wielder takes damage? In fact, why not cast maze or imprisonment rather? A mace or axe that permanently slays undead...? According to D&SD rules, are items such as (some of) these even possible?

And why can't my level 37 sorceror even craft a longsword +1?

[Pirengle]

This is by 2nd ed D&D rules, where magic items were something to fear and only those trained in magic and metals could create fantastic things. It's more of a rule limitation than anything else. The reflection shield, et al, are in the game to provide balance. And Firkraag can be a pain in the posterior for a solo character who hasn't planned the combat down to the last detail or for someone that's not going to cheat like crazy. Roleplaying this game is difficult. (I refer you to here for an account of how difficult things can be for a roleplaying solo wizard.

PS: In 3rd edition D&D, every character can take feats that allow them to craft items.

[Chevar]

I haven't played third edition. I played second, and I didn't much care for it. First edition I enjoyed.. back when it was down and dirty.. you could generate a character in 10 minutes or less, and a creative player running a mage could enchant a great deal of things at level 37.

Masters never teach their students all their tricks.. you simply need to find a way to get in touch with those that do know.. the secret underground society of mage/smiths.. or research and try to create your own spell variations.

In bg2 there are a heck of a lot of magic items, and some of them seem more than a little silly. You can either sit there and be thankful, grumble about the unlikelyhood of it all.. or acknowledge once and for all, that there is a secret society like the masons out there composed of wizard smiths. They have a secret forge near Amn, and they funnel items through the shopkeepers of amn to pay for the luxory in which they live.

The game designers should have included it in the story, but since there are no associated quests, what would be the point.. afterall they have all of the really dangerous items, so they're not the people to pick a fight with.

Now for that level 37 mage.. I have a recipe for you..

1 cup of wonder powder (ground up wand of wonder)
1 potion of haste
2 cups of enchantment (ground up scrolls of enchant item)
6 oz metal shard (smith's choice)
1 Salamander's heart (whole)
Blessed metal tongs.
1 bottle of whiskey
1 potion of agility
3ft x 4ft roll of displacer beast hide
one smiths hammer


using the salamander's heart as a bowl, pur the potion of haste into the heart, and let it come to a slow boil. Add two cups of enchantment, but do not stir. Pickup the 6 ounce metal shard with the tongs, and carefully lower the shard into the heart while the enchantment powder is still settling to the bottom of the salamander's heart. Place the heart on top of a stone altar, and let it set. After the heart has set for three hours cast enchant item on the agility option, and then add it to the brew. Do not stir. Three hours later return and cast enchant item again, on the heart this time. return again three hours later, and add the wonder powder to the mixture, and stir vigorously until the last of the broth has burned away., and then strike the heart with the hammer.

The heart will sharret, and the rest of the ingredients should have soaked into the 6oz metal shard. If it has been done correctly the shard should have changed color, and the hammer will be glowing softly.

Now it's crunch time.. your friendly neighborhood smith must forge the shard into a sword before a day has passed. while the sword is being forged the mage must cast a protection from cold spell upon each time the smith cools the blade.

After the sword is complete the mage must wrap it in the displacer beast hide, and let it set for six days. One the seventh day, using some of the whisky light the displacer beast hide on fire, and drink the remainder of the bottle while you watch it burn.. and burn, and burn.. after the last of the displacer beast hide has burned away the fire will seem to wink out, but don't worry it'll be back. You've now created your first flame tongue.

-----------------------

just be thankfull I didn't post the recipe for creating a staff of the magi.. let's just say it involves a long crooked stick, and a dragon rectum *SHUDDER*

[ 09-20-2004, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Chevar ]

[Hank Parsons]

Hehe, good thread TheGrimm. You made a good point. If I read you right, I gathered that you're hinting, in part: it would be easier for a magic-smith to create the equivalent of the Ring Of Doom (cursed item of 20 damage, let's say) -- than a Shield of Balduran. Interesting point. It applied to me when you said "Possibly because this is a game, we seem most concerned with how an item might affect the game."

I don't use either type of item, the R.O.D. (custom item; powerful yet has a limitation to balance it; easy to imagine it could be created) nor the Shield Of Balduran (non-custom regular game item; powerful and cheesy; unique item that should be one-of-a-kind and difficult to imagine how it's created), because for me they both would affect the game in a way that I don't want, regardless of their realism or fantasy.

I think we role-players need a healthy capacity for the unrealistic and fantastical, so I don't have a problem with impossible items, necessarily. I have more of a problem with items that noticeably diminish the enemy's option to hurt my characters, i.e. make the game tactically easier.

No more recipes, Chevar! Have mercy! My old lady isn't happy with what I've been doing in the kitchen... LOL

[ 09-20-2004, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[theGrimm]

Indeed I was, to some extent, referring to you, Hank [img]smile.gif[/img]

In a sense one might say your are superimposing you're own reality over an already fictional one created by BI. That is, by pretending that those items sinply don't exist.

After all, if you where roleplaying in any sense of the word, you would hardly pick up an item such as the Shield of Balduran and say, "Oh, dear me, no...those poor beholders. I'll be an honorable bhaalspawn and fight them without this obscene slayer-of-beholders".

Actually, Hank, I think that (at least some of the time, and at least in part), you fall into a third class of BG players. Let's call it the chessgamer.

< / begin broad generalizations>

Powergamers like the best stuff and mercilessly wiping everything in site.

Roleplayers give themselves disadvantages and advantages which are fun to act out.

Chessgamers like to up the difficulty of the game in interesting ways to see if they can develop strategies to overcome the new challenges.

< / end broad generalizations>

In that sense, one can easily understand that it is neither the difficulty of crafting an item nor the general effect of the item on the game, but rather the strategic effect of that item on specific battles that is important.

I might perhaps fall into a fourth category. Being something of an analyst, I like to understand the rules of a system and how they interact. I don't like the fact that an item such had the shield of Balduran doesn't seem to fit the rest of the rules that apply to this world.

Right, I have to go now, so I apologize if I offend anyone with my broad generalizations [img]smile.gif[/img] I'll return tomorrow to apologize if I have done so!

[ 09-20-2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: theGrimm ]

[Hank Parsons]

"Chessgamer" is uncomfortably close to "cheese-gamer" in spelling. Otherwise I can understand your distinctions, and per those, surely I would fall into the 3rd category. I don't think I am not a role-player, though.

I play BG series for other reasons in addition to the limited-RP possibilities of the game (pnp D&D for example is a far better game for actually acting in roles).

BG is a *CRPG* and the computer-game aspect introduces different elements to the gaming experience and the pursuit of satisfaction in gaming. My reasons for playing BG include the tactical challenge, as you described it - "trying to develop strategies to overcome the new [increased difficulty battle] challenges."

[SixOfSpades]

I, too, relish the idea of the origin of items, and hate it when incredibly powerful stuff (such as the Cloak of Mirroring) just appears out of nowhere, with not even a footnote about who made it, or even any record of previous use. I also dislike Descriptions that sound too facile: Sanchuudoku, for example, says that the sword was "cooled in fresh Black Dragon blood, and with the hilt decorated with Greater Wolfwere bone fragments," making it sound like this horrifying tool was tossed off in an afternoon by some frat guys with nothing better to do.

My best 'origin' story is on Moradin's Firebrand: The Dwarven god of smithwork had a lump of raw iron that he was planning to make into a helmet, but a Fire Mephit snatched it right out of Moradin's forge before the god could even set his hammer to it. The lump of iron still retains the heat of the holy forges, however, and will deal 1D4 Magic Fire damage per round to anyone (except a Dwarf) who is struck by it or tries to wield it. Also, since Moradin never placed any actual enchantments on the metal, it strikes as a Normal weapon.
The Description also includes a warning on how the Firebrand can be used for cooking and starting fires, and how the best way of keeping it stored when not in use is to pack it into a bag of wet clay, and soak the bag in bodies of water from time to time.

[theGrimm]

@Hank: Unfortunately, yes, this is where broad generalizations fall down. I doubt any of us fall wholly into one category. Some of us are just more distinctive in one category or another.
I would like to withdraw any reference to cheese, though

@Six: The other thing that gets me is the sheer concentration of legendary artifacts in such a small area. But I suppose I shall have to put it down to Chevars secret society. I guess they're just better at crafting magical items then they are at inventing fictional histories.

[Chevar]

I have to agree that there are far too many magic items, and they're too convenient.

the video game world thinks "here take this it'll come in handy"

the role playing world says; "You want a what? Go questing you lazy twit!"

I remember hoarding magical weapons in PnP games because somsone may need one someday.. mind you the weapons my character caried weren't usable by him (cleric), but he kept him incase his friends needed them to win a fight.

Then again The same character had also both a bag of holding and a bag of devouring (great way to deal with pickpockets).. Good bad or ugly you keep them. He had a backbiter in there because it was magic, and you "never know if it'll come in handy" I played that character for three years and had I think 8 magic items including the bags; which were both from the same module.

Magic items should, in theory, be in places that are logical.. if a town is plagued by werewolves their weapons should be made of silver, if they're dealing with undead and the town has money they should hire a mage/smith to make them a bunch of generic +1 swords.. sometimes availability does make sence.. but BG2 goes a little overboard. the only item you really have to work for is the ring of gaxx, if I remember correctly.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

You also need to work for CF... That's perhaps the single battle in the game that I still find remotely challenging.