We've failed at the border for years, why throw away more good money?

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Olorin The reason that naturalization is not a good solution is it would only work to encourage MORE illegal immigration afterwards. Reagan did the whole amnesty thing once already, and rather than fixing illegal immigration, it only increased the rate of it, as now more people thought if they snuck in, and stuck around long enough, they'd eventually get citizenship. Making Mexico a state would only push the border problem to the southern border of Mexico. If we were willing to follow Mexico's policy of using the army to keep Central Americans from crossing the border, maybe fewer people would cross though. As for the whole "Americans won't do ____ job" argument, I personally think it's BS. Our current situation is really "Americans won't do ____ job for the same pay and working conditions that illegals will." This is also why naturalization/amnesty won't work. If you give amnesty to the current illegals, they become recognized immigrants/citizens. Suddenly they can report unsafe working conditions to OSHA without getting deported for their trouble. They can file complaints with labor boards if they are getting paid less than minimum wage, etc. The whole reason employers are using illegals is because they are cheap labor who can't complain. As soon as fresh illegals cross the border, those employers are going to dump their newly minted citizens in favor of the illegals. The net result of amnesty is that 90% of the current illegals will lose their current jobs within a few years, and have to compete for the jobs that "Americans are willing" to do because of their legal status. The only real solution is to first take on the employers. Companies using cheap illegal labor should feel it in the pocketbook (massive fines), while the upper management should find themselves in jail. Illegals who report unsafe conditions/below min. wage pay should still be sent back to their home country, but not until the case is settled and they have a nice fat check in their hand. Companies that are found to be under-paying workers should have to pay back pay to all those they underpaid, with the caveat that picking up your check is done at the border on your way home. If we actually got serious about taking down employers using illegals, employers would clean up their shops, illegal jobs would dry up, and a lot of the illegals would self-deport when the jobs disappeared. Then we'd have 12 million jobs open, now paying decent wages, which the unemployed can use, and we can also open up our legal immigration limits if more labor is needed--but perhaps in a way that is fair to the rest of the world, rather than letting Mexico have the big advantage in the illegal immigration market just because of geography.

I think that's a little naive. I agree with you that the issue is really Americans won't do X job under Y conditions for Z pay. But the truth is, these jobs never have and never will satisfy this criteria. Otherwise, they'd go out of business. It would not be worth it for these jobs to become legit. We'd love it if they did, but they break even only by hiring those who will settle for less. The result, you get your lemons and oranges for 3 per $1 as opposed to 1 lemon costing $5. I think anyone who refutes the fact that there are certain jobs legit citizens simply won't do, have really never spent time near the border. The lowest tier of emplyment most Americans come to is flipping burgers at McDonalds or working in factories on a conveyor belt. And they still complain, or turn bright red when asked what they do for a living. Yet in contrast, they get ample breaks, weekends off, and still work in air-conditioned kitchens or rooms, with a nice check to show for it at the end of the week. To ask them to go out in the fields for 14 hours a day, passing round the water during peak sun - it won't happen.

You know, technically, employment visas would actually work for cases like this. As the immigration criteria for hiring a non-citizen would be met. But these companies won't even do that, because they would have to pay them amicably and according to current rates and laws. But there's nothing to say you could not apply for a number of J1's for these people - even for the summer. Won't happen though and the number of visas available vs. the amount of illegals needed would still not suffice. There's much work to be done on the system, unfortunately, due to misinformation and lack of knowledge about the issue, people want to do it in the wrong places.

[robertthebard]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior I think that's a little naive. I agree with you that the issue is really Americans won't do X job under Y conditions for Z pay. But the truth is, these jobs never have and never will satisfy this criteria. Otherwise, they'd go out of business. It would not be worth it for these jobs to become legit. We'd love it if they did, but they break even only by hiring those who will settle for less. The result, you get your lemons and oranges for 3 per $1 as opposed to 1 lemon costing $5. I think anyone who refutes the fact that there are certain jobs legit citizens simply won't do, have really never spent time near the border. The lowest tier of emplyment most Americans come to is flipping burgers at McDonalds or working in factories on a conveyor belt. And they still complain, or turn bright red when asked what they do for a living. Yet in contrast, they get ample breaks, weekends off, and still work in air-conditioned kitchens or rooms, with a nice check to show for it at the end of the week. To ask them to go out in the fields for 14 hours a day, passing round the water during peak sun - it won't happen. You know, technically, employment visas would actually work for cases like this. As the immigration criteria for hiring a non-citizen would be met. But these companies won't even do that, because they would have to pay them amicably and according to current rates and laws. But there's nothing to say you could not apply for a number of J1's for these people - even for the summer. Won't happen though and the number of visas available vs. the amount of illegals needed would still not suffice. There's much work to be done on the system, unfortunately, due to misinformation and lack of knowledge about the issue, people want to do it in the wrong places.

I think it's naive to think citizens wouldn't do x job for the right pay. I also think that anyone that believes they won't has never had to decide whether to buy toilet paper or light bulbs with their last dollar. When it comes down to steal food to eat, or pick some fruit, there's a lot of people that would rather pick it, than wind up in jail for trying to feed their families. While this is an extreme example, it is not imagined, or pulled out of thin air. This is something that some people have to deal with every day. It's naive to think that people won't do x job because it's beneath them, especially when there's people willing to point a gun at somebody for a loaf of bread.

The reality of the situation is: Some businesses won't hire legal workers because they'd have to pay them. But what do I know? It's not like I lived half a block from a 1 bedroom apartment that had 15 people living in it. Oh wait, yes I have. It's not like I've cleared a block of construction by simply getting out of my truck, waving my wallet around and yelling "Immigration" either...er, yeah, I have...My brother is probably the best non-working framer in town, and he's not working because companies can employ 3 people for what they'd have to pay him. This is "front line" experience with illegals in the workplace talking. I didn't read it at a news source, or hear it from a friend of a friend's cousin. I have been on commercial jobs where I needed an interpreter. Note: I wasn't picking fruit, I was building 6 figure condos.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by robertthebard I think it's naive to think citizens wouldn't do x job for the right pay. I also think that anyone that believes they won't has never had to decide whether to buy toilet paper or light bulbs with their last dollar. When it comes down to steal food to eat, or pick some fruit, there's a lot of people that would rather pick it, than wind up in jail for trying to feed their families. While this is an extreme example, it is not imagined, or pulled out of thin air. This is something that some people have to deal with every day. It's naive to think that people won't do x job because it's beneath them, especially when there's people willing to point a gun at somebody for a loaf of bread.

I never said citizens wouldn't do a certain job if the pay was right (?). Quite the opposite.

Despite it being a post away, i'll do the research for you,

I think that's a little naive. I agree with you that the issue is really Americans won't do X job under Y conditions for Z pay.

The rest of your post originates and expands from this false premise.

[Olorin]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior I think that's a little naive. I agree with you that the issue is really Americans won't do X job under Y conditions for Z pay. But the truth is, these jobs never have and never will satisfy this criteria. Otherwise, they'd go out of business. It would not be worth it for these jobs to become legit. We'd love it if they did, but they break even only by hiring those who will settle for less. The result, you get your lemons and oranges for 3 per $1 as opposed to 1 lemon costing $5. I think anyone who refutes the fact that there are certain jobs legit citizens simply won't do, have really never spent time near the border. The lowest tier of emplyment most Americans come to is flipping burgers at McDonalds or working in factories on a conveyor belt. And they still complain, or turn bright red when asked what they do for a living. Yet in contrast, they get ample breaks, weekends off, and still work in air-conditioned kitchens or rooms, with a nice check to show for it at the end of the week. To ask them to go out in the fields for 14 hours a day, passing round the water during peak sun - it won't happen. You know, technically, employment visas would actually work for cases like this. As the immigration criteria for hiring a non-citizen would be met. But these companies won't even do that, because they would have to pay them amicably and according to current rates and laws. But there's nothing to say you could not apply for a number of J1's for these people - even for the summer. Won't happen though and the number of visas available vs. the amount of illegals needed would still not suffice. There's much work to be done on the system, unfortunately, due to misinformation and lack of knowledge about the issue, people want to do it in the wrong places.

Funny thing is, when I was in high school in MI in the 90's, those jobs still got done. And they weren't done by illegals. Mostly it was the high school students getting summer jobs picking crops at the farms. I didn't go the farm route, though most of my friends did. I had a paper route and did janitorial/snow removal work for some apartment buildings instead.

When I taught high school in East LA, most of my students didn't get jobs during their breaks. All the jobs that high schoolers traditionally get were filled with illegals, and left the high school students with no job prospects during the summers, unless they happened to have a family member running a shop (and our high school was on a track system, so we always had 2/3 attending school and 1/3 on break--employers who needed year round help could have hired 3 students on different tracks and there would always be one available to work full-time, but they didn't bother because illegals are cheaper).

And it's not only the farm jobs where they are trying to pay below min. wage where illegal labor causes problems. Talk to carpenters/roofers/painters/etc. near the borders and ask them how much they make an hour. Then ask how much they made in 1995. The answer will probably be the same. Sure, it's nice for purchasers that houses get built cheaper, but it's to the point in SoCal where a construction company that doesn't use illegals simply can't compete anymore, even with 15+ years of effective pay freeze for their employees.

I do understand that if we severely contract the illegal labor market, there will be a need to increase the number of visas for migrant workers--enforcement against employers and immigration reforms would have to go hand in hand.

At the end of the day, I question how we can say that it's okay to use illegals for farm labor because they are willing to live with 15 people in a 1B1B apartment and accept the low pay and tough work environments. If we are so convinced that Americans shouldn't be expected to work under those conditions, why can we shrug our shoulders and say it's fine for other human beings to do it?

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Olorin Funny thing is, when I was in high school in MI in the 90's, those jobs still got done. And they weren't done by illegals. Mostly it was the high school students getting summer jobs picking crops at the farms. I didn't go the farm route, though most of my friends did. I had a paper route and did janitorial/snow removal work for some apartment buildings instead.

In the 90's? Sure they were done by illegals. I used to cross to Laredo back then and I would see tons of them working the fields as I got close to the border. Not to mention spotting the Coyotes. This was back when Laredo was "safe".

College students only cover 2 months during the summer. Fruit & Veg is borne almost all year 'round especially in the southern parts of Texas where the climate is the same as Mexico, so students on vacation don't cut it. They need a committed, fulltime workforce.

When I taught high school in East LA, most of my students didn't get jobs during their breaks. All the jobs that high schoolers traditionally get were filled with illegals, and left the high school students with no job prospects during the summers, unless they happened to have a family member running a shop (and our high school was on a track system, so we always had 2/3 attending school and 1/3 on break--employers needed year round workers could have hired 3 students on different tracks and there would always be one available to work full-time, but they didn't bother because illegals are cheaper).

East LA? Mcdonalds, Sonic, Walmart, your local Theatre etc. were all filled with illegals? 'Cuz those are the jobs that most high school students get. Some go the convenience store route. And these places may not require the brightest people, but they must be fluent in english enough to understand and deliver orders, deal with inquiries, and general customer service. Most illegals do not fit that bill.

At the end of the day, I question how we can say that it's okay to use illegals for farm labor because they are willing to live with 15 people in a 2B1B apartment and accept the low pay and tough work environments. If we are so convinced that Americans shouldn't be expected to work under those conditions, why can we shrug our shoulders and say it's fine for other human beings to do it?

Because again, we want our cheap product and don't want to do the job ourselves. People pretend to be outraged, yet gloss over the fact that they rely on this market for many things which they take for granted.

[Olorin]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior In the 90's? Sure they were done by illegals. I used to cross to Laredo back then and I would see tons of them working the fields as I got close to the border. Not to mention spotting the Coyotes. This was back when Laredo was "safe".

I won't argue that illegals were doing the job in Laredo then, but in MI, you just didn't see many migrant workers (legal or otherwise).

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior College students only cover 2 months during the summer. Fruit & Veg is borne almost all year 'round especially in the southern parts of Texas where the climate is the same as Mexico, so students on vacation don't cut it. They need a committed, fulltime workforce.

Obviously it is different in the South, where the growing seasons are longer and multiple crops can be grown in a year. However, while high school breaks are from mid-June to Labor Day, there are plenty of colleges the finish the first week of May (I attended one and work at one now). There are others that finish at the end of May, and don't start until September. There are college students available for 4-4.5 months during the summer (though each particular student might only have 3-3.5 months off).

For places that still need workers Oct-April, then we need migrant visas to fill the gap.

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior East LA? Mcdonalds, Sonic, Walmart, your local Theatre etc. were all filled with illegals? 'Cuz those are the jobs that most high school students get. Some go the convenience store route. And these places may not require the brightest people, but they must be fluent in english enough to understand and deliver orders, deal with inquiries, and general customer service. Most illegals do not fit that bill.

Actually, yes. At McD's (no Sonics or Walmarts nearby), theaters, etc, many of the staff are illegals. Some have been around long enough to pick up some English, but in East LA it's much more important for your customer service people to be fluent in Spanish than in English (both in East LA and near the USC campus I've had to wait at McD's, Jack in the Box, etc. for them to get an English speaker to come to the counter to take my order--I eventually picked up enough Spanish to order fast-food so I wouldn't have to wait).

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Because again, we want our cheap product and don't want to do the job ourselves. People pretend to be outraged, yet gloss over the fact that they rely on this market for many things which they take for granted.

I totally agree with you here. I'd rather we addressed the issue head on, even if it means we pay more for our fruits and veggies, as well as construction, etc.

[robertthebard]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior I never said citizens wouldn't do a certain job if the pay was right (?). Quite the opposite. Despite it being a post away, i'll do the research for you, The rest of your post originates and expands from this false premise.

Actually, it doesn't. As Olorin goes on to point out, illegals aren't just picking crops. If they were, you'd be correct. They are taking skilled labor jobs as well, and taking food out of the mouths of legal/citizens that could do these jobs, based on expected pay. If you had a choice between me, at $12.00 an hour, or higher, and Pablo and 2 of his cousins at $4-5.00 an hour, who are you hiring? Especially when you don't have to pay Unemployment/Workman's Comp on Pablo and his cousins. As someone else is fond of pointing out, their medical expenses then become our, or, more accurately, since I'm on disability now, your medical expenses through tax dollars.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Olorin Actually, yes. At McD's (no Sonics or Walmarts nearby), theaters, etc, many of the staff are illegals. Some have been around long enough to pick up some English, but in East LA it's much more important for your customer service people to be fluent in Spanish than in English (both in East LA and near the USC campus I've had to wait at McD's, Jack in the Box, etc. for them to get an English speaker to come to the counter to take my order--I eventually picked up enough Spanish to order fast-food so I wouldn't have to wait).

Are you sure these people are illegal? I just find it hard to believe Micky D's would have them out in front taking orders and arousing suspicion because they cannot speak hardly any engish, and open themselves up every minute for the possibility that someone could make a call and report them, resulting in hefty lawsuit/fine. It seems easier to just hire a regular worker.

Then my other question is, let's say he is legal but cannot speak the language... why would this clearly incompetent guy win and continue to occupy this job over college students who are fluent in their language? When I was on summer vacation from college, I worked in a convenience store with tons of Chinese people who were doing the clerk jobs. The bosses were so happy that I spoke english, they immiediately declared me assistant manager and paid me more than them, in (I guess) an effort to keep me there. I had no retail management experience, and was wholly undeserving of the title but by default I was coveted because I could communicate with customers. Desperate times. It turned out the job sucked, and in this realization I understood why they were so pushed to keep me. Because nobody but immigrants wanted that job. The locals were pursuing "real" careers, leaving the chinese to do these "menial" jobs they were above.

I confess, I ended up doing the same, because I felt this job was horrid and my bestowed title was really just another way of saying "clerk who can actually speak". I did no real manager work. I did nothing different than the chinese people did, other than tell them when they go on break. And I was tasked with this only because my boss had all but given up trying to communicate with them, lol. It was nuts. Btw I must say the Chinese were some of the nicest, most respectable people I have ever worked with in my entire life. I remember thinking some of our rude customers could learn a thing or two about manners from these people. I even picked up a little of their language, and was invited to a party to celebrate the Chinese new year (I know, wtf? But I had a good time and when everyone is drunk english don't matter so much).

Anyway, my point is, if someone from college came along, in comparison they are immediately a step-up from a non-english speaker...legal or illegal. I find it odd that they don't sweep them up immediately. And odder still that McDonalds would blatantly advertise the fact that they hire illegals. I can understand shoving them in the kitchen to flip burgers but out front taking orders, and receiving complains from people because they can't speak?

[Olorin]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Are you sure these people are illegal? I just find it hard to believe Micky D's would have them out in front taking orders and arousing suspicion because they cannot speak hardly any engish, and open themselves up every minute for the possibility that someone could make a call and report them, resulting in hefty lawsuit/fine. It seems easier to just hire a regular worker. Then my other question is, let's say he is legal but cannot speak the language... why would this clearly incompetent guy win and continue to occupy this job over college students who are fluent in their language? When I was on summer vacation from college, I worked in a convenience store with tons of Chinese people who were doing the clerk jobs. The bosses were so happy that I spoke english, they immiediately declared me assistant manager and paid me more than them, in (I guess) an effort to keep me there. I had no retail management experience, and was wholly undeserving of the title but by default I was coveted because I could communicate with customers. Desperate times. It turned out the job sucked, and in this realization I understood why they were so pushed to keep me. Because nobody but immigrants wanted that job. The locals were pursuing "real" careers, leaving the chinese to do these "menial" jobs they were above. I confess, I ended up doing the same, because I felt this job was horrid and my bestowed title was really just another way of saying "clerk who can actually speak". I did no real manager work. I did nothing different than the chinese people did, other than tell them when they go on break. And I was tasked with this only because my boss had all but given up trying to communicate with them, lol. It was nuts. Btw I must say the Chinese were some of the nicest, most respectable people I have ever worked with in my entire life. I remember thinking some of our rude customers could learn a thing or two about manners from these people. I even picked up a little of their language, and was invited to a party to celebrate the Chinese new year (I know, wtf? But I had a good time and when everyone is drunk english don't matter so much). Anyway, my point is, if someone from college came along, in comparison they are immediately a step-up from a non-english speaker...legal or illegal. I find it odd that they don't sweep them up immediately. And odder still that McDonalds would blatantly advertise the fact that they hire illegals. I can understand shoving them in the kitchen to flip burgers but out front taking orders, and receiving complains from people because they can't speak?

In the neighborhoods I'm talking about, if a college kid came in wanting a job that could speak perfect English, but didn't ALSO speak fluent Spanish, they wouldn't hire the college kid. After all, as you said, why would hire someone who can't speak to their customers over someone who can?

As I mentioned earlier, I went into fast-food places in LA where the person at the counter didn't speak English and had to fetch someone else to take my order. But if I had tried to get a job there, I would have been laughed at because I didn't speak Spanish, and what they needed were Spanish speaking clerks to talk to their Spanish speaking clientele. I eventually learned that "numero seis, solamente lechuga" was enough Spanish to get me the food I wanted.

Now, on campus, sure, the eateries were staffed by students (on work-study), and knowing English was a basic requirement to deal with customers. And the sit-down place next to McD's employed English speaking wait-staff (actually probably bilingual staff).

It's true, I had no way of knowing if the clerks were illegals, or legal immigrants who didn't speak English. I don't think McD's was that worried about ICE dropping by. For one thing, I doubt ICE would have cared much if someone did call and tell them that the spanish-speaking clerk "just has to be an illegal". And even if they did do a raid, I'm sure that McD's had SSN's on file for all employees which 'looked correct' (i.e. the numbers had the right amount of digits).

[Lord of Alcohol]

Originally Posted by Felix The Assassin What hurts the most 'round here is: Skilled (masons) labor is under-cut by rogue builders who bring in 2 dozen "migrant laborers" who can do the job in 1/2 the time and less the cost. Sadly people wonder why their mortar is cracking after 3-5 years. Worst of all, the flipping "inspectors" who are suppose to be "inspecting" never "inspect" during the task, only after! Knowing how cash strapped the state is, I really wonder what the value is of the building inspectors in this area.

Sad but true. One of my duties when I worked in NC was to fix the crap they screwed up. I had to pull 1/2 the windows out of a house and reset them once. And setting a window properly just isnt that hard either. Though it would be impossible for an inspector to be there as the job is done. There juat isnt enough time for that, or inspectors since most areas are laying them off in droves. Charlotte laid off hundreds, not sure how many here in the Denver CO area.

Also Oloron, need you to come by and help set a steel beam tomorrow off Broadway and Dartmouth. Thanks!