Religion in Schools

[harleyquinn]

Sorry, but if you want your child to learn religion in school, then send them to a religious school. Religion has no place in the public schools. There's seperation of church and state for a reason. As someone who was the only Jewish kid in her high school, it was hard enough that I missed out on certain school traditions I had been waiting my whole HS life for because they scheduled them on Jewish holidays where I had to be in temple the whole day. I can only imagine how much more of an outsider I would have felt with all the praying and such going on.

Ok, time for me to toss my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] into the hat.

The US and its constitution and its judicial system were all created under the principles of Christianity. All of the founding fathers believed in Christianity and were convinced of the necessity of having those core values incorporated into our country. They swore oaths, pledged them selves truthful under god and acknowledged the existance of god on their currency and in their official documents.

They wrote the constitution to grant people the freedom to worship as they pleased rather than be forced to worship in a state sponsored religion/sect. They never wrote anything stating that a person had a right to be free from religion....just freedom OF religion. And I am not entirely sure they ment free to worship any religion on the planet but free to worship any christian faith...however since they did not have the forsight to comment on this subject....we will never know for sure exactly what they would think of allowing non-christian faiths to crowd out and infringe on the one that they believed in.

In trying to wash out any vestiges of religion and christianity from the Nation, you are attempting to destroy what the founder wrought, and this is wrong.

In my Opinion.
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Edit: Now for prayer in school, why should schools be any different from governmental meetings (which start with prayers or invocations)? Perhaps to satisfy the non-forced religion thing, perhaps just a moment of silence where kids are urged to pray or at least reflect on moral and ethical issues. Kids should be urged to examine morals and ethics more not less.

Handing things out, not on school property and not outside the property..the kids don't need to be molested...let the parents raise the kids.

[ 05-28-2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Here's the Library of Congress links for online copies of about every underlying important founding document in the US, including the Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, and all the way back to the Magna Carta. The site includes some good commentary too, such as the Federalist Papers.

[Timber Loftis]

A lot of folks seem to think that CHRISTIANITY is to blame because it is the religion seeking to spread its seed. Well, it is true that Christianity does this, and we should be mindful that "witnessing" is a central tenet of the faith -- though it is likely fed to the faithful in an increasingly watered-down version these days.

But, I want to point out Christians are not the only ones: the Hari Krishnas are the reason religious gathering was banned from airports.

MagiK may have a point about the founding fathers. They were mostly Christian - in fact they were generally too religiously conservative to be in England at the time - and the word "God" found its way onto our money, into our pledge, and into all our courtrooms alongside the flag. If you'd like to reason some real preaching, find some of the old Indian (Native American) cases where the courts are justifying the white man's claim to the land.

I even saw a property case once where, when pressed to trace the property title ad infinitum, the court snippishly traced the Louisian property history through the Louisiana Purchase and to the King, who had been granted the land in perpetuity by God. The case ended with the line "God made Louisiana."

I also just checked out some cases. I found one, turn of the century (1900, not 2000 for you younguns ), that contemplated a Muslim protesting to Christian reading. While that was not the case before the court, and was therefore not decided, the court indicated such a fellow would have a much better claim than the Christian who had brought the claim.

I guess when it comes down to it, though, I think the founding fathers WOULD want to protect other people from ANY religious establishment AT ALL. If Christian sects can hate each other so much, different religions certainly can.

Again, Gideons handing out bibles is FINE. It is SPEECH, which is FREE. Unless it is particularly forbidden in certain reasonable time, places, and manners (such as at an airport). However, if it is on public school grounds, the state is participating in a possible establishment of religion violation.

Final note: ever notice a lot of civic groups and clubs meet at schools after-hours? The Boy Scouts are religious, if homophobic. However, the "state establishment" doesn't apply because you can choose not to participate in these after-school meetings, groups, and clubs.

[harleyquinn]

The Boy Scouts issue is a whole 'nother gripe of mine. They are free to keep out whomever they want, I am not denying them that right. What I have a problem with is the government telling communities that they HAVE to allow the Scouts to use their schools for their meetings or face losing government funding for the schools.
The reason I have a problem is that if the BS's are private, which is why they can ban certain groups from membership, then the government should keep out of it. If the gov't is going to support the group financially (which is really what they're doing by saying to communities, let them use your school or we'll pull our money) then they should be required to not keep out anyone regardless of religion, sexual orientation, or race. If a community chooses to support them, that's one thing, but they shouldn't be blackmailed into doing so.

Harley, if the property is going to be made available to the public for extracurricular activities, it has to be made avaialble to everyone. Otherwise it would be government infringement of the rights of those individuals...descrimination....so Gays and Lesbians, scouts and wiccans should all have access to the school facilities or none of them should.

[Timber Loftis]

MagiK's right. Open to all groups or open to none.

Now, let's talk about the Solomon Amendment that forces schools to allow the military to interview on campus, even in states (such as VT, HI) where the state law prohibits the school from allowing a blatantly prejudicial (against gays) employer to interview. Talk about a Catch-22.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by MagiK: Harley, if the property is going to be made available to the public for extracurricular activities, it has to be made avaialble to everyone. Otherwise it would be government infringement of the rights of those individuals...descrimination....so Gays and Lesbians, scouts and wiccans should all have access to the school facilities or none of them should.

But some school districts have bylaws/regulations not allowing the use of school property by groups that discriminate. Which the Boy Scouts would fall under.

[ElricMorlockin]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: This is an issue I've discussed with my college buddies in our e-mail debates and I thought it would make for an interesting discussion here as well. The thread title is very broad, so I will narrow it down a bit. I want to focus on two aspects of religion appearing in school and debate these issues. First, prayer in school. I'm talking primarily about "P.A. Prayer" (prayers said on behalf of the student body over the "P.A." system or on behalf of the athletes at a sporting event) rather than class-led or individual prayers - but I realize the discussion will inevitable involve ALL forms of prayer in school. Still, I would like to keep the focus on P.A. Prayers as much as possible. Second, Gideon's handing out Bibles to school children. Are these examples a breach of the Constitutional admonishment to keep church and state separate? Or do they conform to the requirements of "freedom of religion and religious practice"? Are they acceptable under certain conditions or should they not be allowed in any shape, form, or fashion? BTW, this does not necessarily have to turn into another "Circle of Strife" argument. I'm a Southern Baptist, but I was given enough evidence to actually change my view on one of these two topics by a close friend who is also an atheist. So let's keep an open mind and consider the weight of each other's arguments - and as always - argue the point rather than attacking the person! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Hmmm, first of all there is no "seperation of church and state" proviso in the US Constitution. That is a made up mantra, nothing short of it. It does say that Congress will make no law respecting an establishment of religion, which means that our country would not have a Church of England for instance, where every other practiced religion/faith would be persecuted as illegal et al.
However, IMO, public institutions are really a two edged sword. On one hand government mandated religious ceremony should not be forced upon every student, since it then means that the state is in fact pressing its ideals of today, against the protections of the first ammendment. On the other hand, if a person is asked to put their tax money into a kitty, thats usage is to be determined by elected officials, then said person should IMO have all the damned say in the world on how it is spent/utilized. The solution IMO, is a tax credit to those who would send their kids to a private school. However, I am not a big proponent of school vouchers, simply because there has to be some schools in this country where education actually still takes place, instead of indoctrination to some half twisted idealogies.
IMO, if the tax credit is provided, where the public institution may lose a large percentage of its student body and subsequent funding, they *will* get the message that the nonsense going on as we speak must stop, or they run the risk of having their tea party ended permenately. This is a classic case of money talking and B.S. walking, and IMO will cure the problem in short order. Once the problem of removing the idealogues is accomplished, IMO, the public school system could very well go on to be the envy of quite a number of people globally. But it will never change under the current, tide of guidence and mentality it exists under as we speak.

[pritchke]

These are all great points.

Here is my view based on respect for other religions.

Private schools who cater to a religion great. Public schools not so much I would not use the PA and I would not be handing out bibles. If a teacher wanted to have a minute of silent prayer at the start of class than fine, as atheist can use the minute of silence to go over ideas and no one would be offended of another's religion or prayer as it would be silent. As far as classes go in a public school a course in religion would be OK as long as it was an optional course, and as long as it was more of a cultural study on various religion so has to better understand people of different cultures and religions (now more than ever due to the ignorance displayed by people against our Muslim brothers and sisters) or one not so much of religion but debating slippery slopes and morals as these topics are useful to any religion.

[ 05-28-2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]