America never gets help!!!

[Tobbin]

Originally posted by 250: sigh... the more countries involved, the uglier it will get it would be better if it is just Bush vs Bin Laden in a ten round midweight boxing, or Thai Kick [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 09-16-2001).]

There ya go. Now that would be something to see. LOL



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Protectorate of the OHF
Death Waits 4 U ALL

[250]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Dio, don't get discouraged. Don't take things personally, mate! People feel just as passionately about their opinions as you do. I think you're a credit to this board - you always argue the point, not the person. You are the perfect example of how to carry on a debate - expressing a view in a courteous, articulate and respectful manner.

if he is a credit, then I am a MasterCard

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Dio, can you tell us what countries did join that war without being attacked first? Oh and I certainly don't condone watching Hitler destroy and pillage throughout Europe without any action, but I'd love to know what the US government's reasons were. Aside from self-preservation, that is. CB

Actually, Cloudy, World War II is deemed to have begun when Hitler invaded Poland on Sept 1, 1939, and England and France declared war to protect the integrity of Poland two days later, as they had pledged the Poles they would do if Hitler attacked them.

Of course, they too were ultimately acting in their own self interest, having decided by that point that war with Hitler was necessary to preserve Europe and themselves from the threat posed by Hitler.

I am NOT arguing that the US is unique in acting in its own self interest. On the contrary, that is a trait shared by governments the world over throughout history, for the most part.

[250]

Originally posted by Tobbin: There ya go. Now that would be something to see. LOL

yeah, that is how "real" men settle disputs

[John D Harris]

Dio,
I agree that it (removeing of unfair govt) was not the SOLE reason for any of the actions taken that I listed.
Panama- Noriega had lost a legal election, witnessed by former President Carter, who was there for verifacation of the election. Noriega did not want to give up power because he was under inditment(sp?).
I think you are refering to Grenada (sp?)with President Reagan. I was refering to Haiti in the early 90's. The Haitian leader Jean Par somthing or another had lost a legal election and also refused to give up power. The USA was flooded with boat people.
Dominican Republic President Johnson sent troops in when rebels tried to sieze power, after the elected gov't had been over thrown a year or two earlier. The civl war was causing chaos in the entire country. Other countries of the Organization of American States joined in.
Soviet block - Communism can hardly be considered a "fair form of Govt."


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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Actually, Cloudy, World War II is deemed to have begun when Hitler invaded Poland on Sept 1, 1939, and England and France declared war to protect the integrity of Poland two days later, as they had pledged the Poles they would do if Hitler attacked them. Of course, they too were ultimately acting in their own self interest, having decided by that point that war with Hitler was necessary to preserve Europe and themselves from the threat posed by Hitler. I am NOT arguing that the US is unique in acting in its own self interest. On the contrary, that is a trait shared by governments the world over throughout history, for the most part.

Thanks. I haven't had any international affairs courses in a long time... *carefully avoids counting up the years as she hasn't got enough fingers*

Anyway that was my point, that we aren't alone in those actions/reactions. Now, that's not to say that ethically or morally we are necessarily right! Just that it is or seems to be the 'norm' for international relations. With any luck, things will change, not overnight, I'm afraid but hopefully a more 'global' awareness is coming.

And I imagine we had no such treaty with Poland or we'd have honored it, or I'd like to think we would have. Those countries that did, were honoring a treaty and, as you mentioned, acting in their self interest.

I don't for a minute think I have the answers to the present situation. I suspect those in the positions to be making the decisions are pretty tense and concerned about their decisions right now. All I can do and certainly hope others do is pray (if you are inclined to that action) or hope for the overall 'right' thing to be done.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Sorry Dio, but in the grip of those emotions, people don't stop and listen to such things. Perhaps they should, I'm not arguing with you, just stating the fact of human nature as I've experienced it. Cloudy

What you say is true, Cloudy. I know that.

However, we should at least try to rise to the occasion, we should at least try to live up to what the situation calls for.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Memnoch: You are the perfect example of how to carry on a debate - expressing a view in a courteous, articulate and respectful manner.

Well, I have to disagree with that, Memnoch. I lose my cool and say things in a way that is more confrontational than necessary sometimes. But thanks for the support anyway. You too, Cloudbringer

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: What you say is true, Cloudy. I know that. However, we should at least try to rise to the occasion, we should at least try to live up to what the situation calls for.

Dio, you really are a decent human being.

HUG

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Dio, I agree that it (removeing of unfair govt) was not the SOLE reason for any of the actions taken that I listed. Panama- Noriega had lost a legal election, witnessed by former President Carter, who was there for verifacation of the election. Noriega did not want to give up power because he was under inditment(sp?). I think you are refering to Grenada (sp?)with President Reagan. I was refering to Haiti in the early 90's. The Haitian leader Jean Par somthing or another had lost a legal election and also refused to give up power. The USA was flooded with boat people. Dominican Republic President Johnson sent troops in when rebels tried to sieze power, after the elected gov't had been over thrown a year or two earlier. The civl war was causing chaos in the entire country. Other countries of the Organization of American States joined in. Soviet block - Communism can hardly be considered a "fair form of Govt."

John, historically the US is only bothered to the point of intervening by questionable elections when it has something to gain from doing so. We cheerfully look the other way, or even support questionable governments, when that is in our interest.

Yes, I was thinking of Grenada instead of Haiti. My bad.

I don't think we really disagree here on the central point here. My point is simply that the US government has been historically motivated by self interest. That's all.