Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Dragonshadow I went to a Christian primary school, and a secondary run by a devout Catholic. I never really beleived in God, but kept the mind frame of "he could exist". Similarly, what little faith I may have had, I lost when my gran died and a well meaning Christian friend said "God planned it all out, including her death. He has greater plans for her". To me, that was like saying God killed her. I wondered, if God planned my gran dying, did he plan my grandad's painful death? Did he plan her misery through memory loss? Did he plan my family's years of pain watching my sister trying to destroy herself? Let's not even start on wars and people who have it a hell of a lot worse off than my family. Imho, if God does exist and planned everything, he has a hell of a lot to answer for.

This is a very common response from non-believers. "I don't believe God exists, but if He does exist, then everything bad that has ever happened is all His fault."

I understand the line of reasoning. Christian's always say "God is in control" when things happen we don't understand, so it is natural to say "Well if He is in control, then it's His fault this happened". This ignores two important points. One is that God's control is often "passive". He allows events to unfold to their natural outcome. The other is the existence of Satan in the world. He works to destroy God's plan and lure people away from what God wants for them.

As a parent, it is my responsibility to inform my children about the dangers of drugs and alcohol. However, I know they will have friends at school trying to convince them these things are "cool" and that they're really "ok". So, am I accountable if my children listen to another influence and use drugs?

A coach has control of his team and the referees maintain control in the game, but are either of these figures responsible if a player ignores the coaches advice about game strategy or punches an opposing player despite the referee standing right there?

Yes, God IS more powerful than any parent, coach or referee, but that doesn't mean he takes absolute control over every single thought or action in our lives. He allows us to do as we choose, but that also means we have to suffer the consequences of our actions sometimes. The end result will still be the same in accordance with God's plan, just like the team may very well win the game despite one player's misdeeds.

As for disease and death, I've seen and experienced both. I certainly would not have chosen to have a chronic illness that affects me for the rest of my life. I also would not have chose to watch my father's health steadily deteriorate over a year until he was confined to a bed in a nursing home. But when his body reached it's limits, his spirit became stronger. He reconciled a dispute with his siblings that had festered for more than a decade and he spoke often in his last days of seeing Heaven. He described how beautiful it was and how much he wanted to go there. It took a few weeks before his body would finally give out. I was not at his side when he passed (I was home with my children that weekend), but my mom and his siblings WERE with him. Mom has told me his physical death was very painful - it was NOT at all what the doctors had said it would be. However, that physical suffering was less than a blink of the eye compared to the spiritual rebirth he experienced when his body finally gave out. At the very last, he passed with a peaceful expression on his face, despite the suffering he endured prior to that.

We are not promised a peaceful death, we are just assured that our time here is limited. We also are not promised a life free from pain, betrayal or anguish. We are only promised that God will carry us through these times and we will become stronger for the experience. I would not have chosen to be divorced, but I can see now that my life will be much happier without my ex-wife and my children will actually have a better environment in the long run than if we had stayed together.

All things DO work for the good of them that love and trust God, it just doesn't always seem that way at the time.

[dplax]

Cerek: suppose that it was a miracle. Do you have any way to know that it was the God you believe in that sent it? I'm not trying to question your faith, just wondering how you make the connection between a miraculous recovery and your beliefs.

Edit: I was of course referring to your recovery and not your father's death, you just posted while I was thinking on how to phrase my post.

[Beaumanoir]

Originally Posted by Cerek This is a very common response from non-believers. "I don't believe God exists, but if He does exist, then everything bad that has ever happened is all His fault." I understand the line of reasoning. Christian's always say "God is in control" when things happen we don't understand, so it is natural to say "Well if He is in control, then it's His fault this happened". This ignores two important points. One is that God's control is often "passive". He allows events to unfold to their natural outcome. The other is the existence of Satan in the world. He works to destroy God's plan and lure people away from what God wants for them. As a parent, it is my responsibility to inform my children about the dangers of drugs and alcohol. However, I know they will have friends at school trying to convince them these things are "cool" and that they're really "ok". So, am I accountable if my children listen to another influence and use drugs? A coach has control of his team and the referees maintain control in the game, but are either of these figures responsible if a player ignores the coaches advice about game strategy or punches an opposing player despite the referee standing right there? Yes, God IS more powerful than any parent, coach or referee, but that doesn't mean he takes absolute control over every single thought or action in our lives. He allows us to do as we choose, but that also means we have to suffer the consequences of our actions sometimes. The end result will still be the same in accordance with God's plan, just like the team may very well win the game despite one player's misdeeds. As for disease and death, I've seen and experienced both. I certainly would not have chosen to have a chronic illness that affects me for the rest of my life. I also would not have chose to watch my father's health steadily deteriorate over a year until he was confined to a bed in a nursing home. But when his body reached it's limits, his spirit became stronger. He reconciled a dispute with his siblings that had festered for more than a decade and he spoke often in his last days of seeing Heaven. He described how beautiful it was and how much he wanted to go there. It took a few weeks before his body would finally give out. I was not at his side when he passed (I was home with my children that weekend), but my mom and his siblings WERE with him. Mom has told me his physical death was very painful - it was NOT at all what the doctors had said it would be. However, that physical suffering was less than a blink of the eye compared to the spiritual rebirth he experienced when his body finally gave out. At the very last, he passed with a peaceful expression on his face, despite the suffering he endured prior to that. We are not promised a peaceful death, we are just assured that our time here is limited. We also are not promised a life free from pain, betrayal or anguish. We are only promised that God will carry us through these times and we will become stronger for the experience. I would not have chosen to be divorced, but I can see now that my life will be much happier without my ex-wife and my children will actually have a better environment in the long run than if we had stayed together. All things DO work for the good of them that love and trust God, it just doesn't always seem that way at the time.

Not his fault. I know who's fault the wrongs in the world are, it's humans. But 'he' allows it to happen. There's a big difference between causing something and letting it happen. As for our choices, disease and famine are no-ones choices, they're forced upon you, as you'd well know after what you've been through.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Here's another way God works:
I wanted to respond to several of these points, but The Lord said no, there are better people {like Cerek and Yorick, (sounds like brothers)} to provide a response.

I will say though, that we made the mess, we are responsible for it.

[dplax]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir As for our choices, disease and famine are no-ones choices, they're forced upon you, as you'd well know after what you've been through.

Some diseases and famines could easily be avoided if developed countries helped developing countries more...but that is the subject for a totally different conversation and I'll stop here and try not to derail the topic.

[Beaumanoir]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood Here's another way God works: I wanted to respond to several of these points, but The Lord said no, there are better people {like Cerek and Yorick, (sounds like brothers)} to provide a response. I will say though, that we made the mess, we are responsible for it.

I'm afraid I don't understand this. Jesus told you not to reply?

[Chewbacca]

I'm certain most all gods and religions are little more than myth and in some cases simply a fraud designed to control people or create wealth.

I have expirienced grace, witnessed miracles, and have lots of faith. We all have the things religion claims to offer within ourselves. No supernatural creators, holy books, preachers, or tithes required.

[SpiritWarrior]

Yes we do. I too have experienced all of these things yet without the complications or having to do it "in the name of" any organized religion.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir I'm afraid I don't understand this. Jesus told you not to reply?

He tells ME not to reply quite regularly.
If ignore it, and hit send anyway, that's usually when it all goes downhill.

[Lavindathar]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir I'm afraid I don't understand this. Jesus told you not to reply?

Best line in this thread