On Nazism - Page 4

Lifetime · 10-08-2001, 05:57 AM

Kaz, actually I believe(my opinion I mean) that Hitler chose to give the people something to focus on, like how a drowning man will clutch to anything. As Istaron said, he used other races as focal points for their rage, in order to raise public support for his regime and deflect attention from what his agenda was.
I dont believe he inspired them to patriotism as you mean it. I DO believe that many Nazis WERE patriotic, as in, Loved Germany the nation, and loved the Greatness of Germany. However, when you use patriotism as a word for "loving the country", especially compared to America, then it surely was not that, because, from Yorick's post, patriotism does not mean hating everyone else, especially not those in your own nation! I believe Hitler defined patriotism as loyalty to the NAZI-Germany cause, because its easy to forget how, in that period, that there were many many races who called themselves German, even the Jewish, or minorities like the Gypsies or Homosexuals. Yet Hitler persecuted them all. I have been to a Nazi Death Camp in Poland (Auschwitz), and I dont believe that a gas chamber can tell the difference between a homosexual or an "anti-social" and a German-raised, German-speaking Jew. Hitler hated these people, and he promoted loyalty to NAZI-Germany, the Third Reich, and the superiority of the Aryan race(in Mein Kampf, he describes it as the Aryan man's race/struggle for survival, and that it requires them to take power by force to drive out contaminants to their race, eg. Jews). This, I'm sure you will agree with me, Kaz, is not what Germany is made up of. I have been there, and I know that Germany is MORE than just a nation of racists and skinheads(met them too the hard way I'm afraid). Hitler was promoting HIS brand of Germany, and therefore patriotism to a not-so-true form of Germany.
In my earlier post, the brand of Nazi patriotism I was talking about referred to love for Nazi-Germany, not the real Germany.
The common man was motivated for love by the real Germany, Hitler was elected by Jews as well as Aryans. But Hitler twisted this into Kaz's patriotism no.2, Blind and unflinchingly loyalty to Nazi-Germany, and the Third Reich.
I believe this better answer's Dio's original question. The differences between such a thing, as patriotism to a regime, and patriotism to the country that people have built with their own hands and have died for throughout history(I mean both Germany and the USA) is obvious.
Thus your question can be as accurately reflected as "whats the difference between that(Nazi-Germany), and that(Patriotic America OR Germany)", because German patriotism does not equal Nazi Facism.

Damn was that as clear as mud?

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No-Name Face

Kaz · 10-08-2001, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:

America is a very openly patriotic nation. Australia by contrast is almost the antithesis of this - unless the Australian is outside their country, or living during an Olympic games in their country. That is when an Australian is patriotic.

As I said, Germany is almost the antithesis today - patriots get shot on sight (j/k)

EDIT: Just saw your post, Lifetime. Very good! I agree with all of it, it's true that Hitler used the Jews as a kind of scapegoat to unite the country.

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Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB
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Magess of Lady Lioness' Court
Historian of IW
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Lux omnis est

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 10-08-2001).]

Liliara · 10-08-2001, 06:10 AM

Cloudy, Nachtrafe wasn't putting down schools in general, he was talking about a post that I made. I do respect you, but darn it...does anyone read through the thread before they post? (hey, I've been accused myself, therefor I can accuse

)

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

Nachtrafe · 10-08-2001, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
GRRRRRRRRR! Ok, I take umbrage at this one! That's a gross generalization, which I can personally debunk as I've attended 2 colleges, work in one, communicate with other schools and talk to our grads who've attended other universities for undergrad work. I have some idea what universities are like.

I got an incredibly good undergraduate education and I'd say the vast majority of the faculty at the STATE university I attended were qualified, conscientious and imparted their information in a way that made me want to learn! And one or two 'hippies' in the mix were an education all on their own. Learning can encompass many things, what you like and don't like for classes or instruction methods can be useful too! And one can often choose classes/ instructors with input from other students so as to avoid teaching styles you dislike or get the ones you prefer.

Yes dear, but you went to college(forgive me)almost 20 years ago. Most of those hippie types weren't teachers yet. And its not a gross generalization. Have you looked at a course book for Berkeley? NYU? Texas A&M? Frightening stuff. I'll send you a copy of the Berkeley one if you'd like. Pretty spooky.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

Cloudbringer · 10-08-2001, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
Yes dear, but you went to college(forgive me)almost 20 years ago. Most of those hippie types weren't teachers yet. And its not a gross generalization. Have you looked at a course book for Berkeley? NYU? Texas A&M? Frightening stuff. I'll send you a copy of the Berkeley one if you'd like. Pretty spooky.

LOL.. no worries, darling, the whole board knows how long ago I had to have been in college. BUT, I've had some classes MUCH more recently, see the syllabi for current courses at the university (state) where I work every semester, and work with faculty. I think you missed where I pointed out that I talk to students about their other schools, and I also communicate with faculty from other schools, etc..

I guess I'm trying to say that maybe SOME schools have curriculums that fit your description, but not the vast majority, by any means!

And at risk of offending anyone.. Berkeley? I'd expect that..

Just bring the catalog with you.

Cloudy
Angeleyes

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CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
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"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

Nachtrafe · 10-08-2001, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liliara:
Cloudy, Nachtrafe wasn't putting down schools in general, he was talking about a post that I made. I do respect you, but darn it...does anyone read through the thread before they post? (hey, I've been accused myself, therefor I can accuse )

LOL...actually, I *WAS* putting down schools in general.

The public grade school ones anyway. And a great number of the private, "Higher Learning" ones too.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

Cloudbringer · 10-08-2001, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liliara:
Cloudy, Nachtrafe wasn't putting down schools in general, he was talking about a post that I made. I do respect you, but darn it...does anyone read through the thread before they post? (hey, I've been accused myself, therefor I can accuse )

LOL.. He was, indeed, doing just that, Liliara! And I have read EVERY post in your thread. Hey, you should be flattered, because it's LONG and I'm up waaaaaaaaaay past my bedtime AND I don't often post nearly this much in these heavy debate/discuss threads!

CB
PS..thanks for the respect, I appreciate you saying so!

------------------

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

Tuor · 10-08-2001, 07:13 AM

As far as Nazism goes I think we're missing one quite important point. (you'll have to bear with me here)

When Hitler rose to power, or was rising to power he promised the people of Germany, affluence and jobs.

The existing rulers of Germay, were old, generally not very good politicians who appeared incapable of getting Germany out of the great depression it had sunk into so the young were swayed by Hitler's oratorical skills and his brand of right wing preaching.

But as well as offering the elcetorate what they wanted he also murdered, bribed and intimidated his way to power. He had his thugs on the doors of every polling station in Germany escorting those who did not plan to vote for Hitler to the booths and threatening them into voting for him.

His political enemies were murdered once he was in power and the army was liberally sprinkled with high ranking officers loyal to him so a mutiny in the armed forces was never likely.
He wiped out the whole SA leadership after it got him to power and executed or removed all army officers thought to be unsympathetic to him. The remaining armed forced leaders were still extremely put out about the unfairness of the treaty of Versaille.

Once he was in power he gradually brought in anti-semetic laws over a period of 2-3 years and used the hitler youth and hired heavies to persecute the Jews.

When Hitler was elected he probably came across as a good choice to get Germany out of a rut and relatively normal, if a bit right wing and fanatical. But it was only after a year or so people realised what was going on.

By then it was to late for the normal man to do anything because groups like Hitler youth, SA, the secret police and the Nazi party itself had created such a climate of fear no one would speak out against the state and it could do what it liked. The Army was stil loyal and there were enough fanatics in teh country to keep a beady eye on those opposed to Hitler.

It took a very special set of circumstances to bring Hitler to power-it was certainly more than patriotism, and patriotism did not keep him their, it was the population's fear of what would happen to them if they did not support the state's actions no matter how appalling they were.

IF YOU IGNORE the policies which isolated and alienated the minority groups in Germany during his rule, Hitler's were very similar to those of the communist state. Lots of workers, state industries and utter loyalty (through intimiation of fanaticism) to the cause.

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-08-2001, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
My country right or wrong.
My wife for better or worse.

Sounds similar to me Dio.

Yorick, loving another person does NOT mean that one will automatically follow them blindly in everything they do regardless of whether they or right or wrong in a given situation. Surely you don't really believe that either.

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 10-08-2001, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
It is this I took issue with.

You were addressing this statement of mine:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
"No different whatsoever than the flag waving patriotic emotion in America today."

I will say it again, nationalism is nationalism. The flag waving patriotism of Germans under Hitler was the same sentiment as the flag waving patriotism of Americans today.

With what I take to be your position, you might as well argue that one form of racism is different from another, that the racism displayed by whites against blacks is different from the racism displayed by japanes against chinese. Yes, obviously there are many differences in the historical details, but one cannot hide behind those details to claim that the general principle is any different.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-08-2001).]

10-08-2001, 05:57 AM	#31
Lifetime Red Dragon Join Date: March 3, 2001 Location: Scotch College, Melbourne Posts: 1,503	Kaz, actually I believe(my opinion I mean) that Hitler chose to give the people something to focus on, like how a drowning man will clutch to anything. As Istaron said, he used other races as focal points for their rage, in order to raise public support for his regime and deflect attention from what his agenda was. I dont believe he inspired them to patriotism as you mean it. I DO believe that many Nazis WERE patriotic, as in, Loved Germany the nation, and loved the Greatness of Germany. However, when you use patriotism as a word for "loving the country", especially compared to America, then it surely was not that, because, from Yorick's post, patriotism does not mean hating everyone else, especially not those in your own nation! I believe Hitler defined patriotism as loyalty to the NAZI-Germany cause, because its easy to forget how, in that period, that there were many many races who called themselves German, even the Jewish, or minorities like the Gypsies or Homosexuals. Yet Hitler persecuted them all. I have been to a Nazi Death Camp in Poland (Auschwitz), and I dont believe that a gas chamber can tell the difference between a homosexual or an "anti-social" and a German-raised, German-speaking Jew. Hitler hated these people, and he promoted loyalty to NAZI-Germany, the Third Reich, and the superiority of the Aryan race(in Mein Kampf, he describes it as the Aryan man's race/struggle for survival, and that it requires them to take power by force to drive out contaminants to their race, eg. Jews). This, I'm sure you will agree with me, Kaz, is not what Germany is made up of. I have been there, and I know that Germany is MORE than just a nation of racists and skinheads(met them too the hard way I'm afraid). Hitler was promoting HIS brand of Germany, and therefore patriotism to a not-so-true form of Germany. In my earlier post, the brand of Nazi patriotism I was talking about referred to love for Nazi-Germany, not the real Germany. The common man was motivated for love by the real Germany, Hitler was elected by Jews as well as Aryans. But Hitler twisted this into Kaz's patriotism no.2, Blind and unflinchingly loyalty to Nazi-Germany, and the Third Reich. I believe this better answer's Dio's original question. The differences between such a thing, as patriotism to a regime, and patriotism to the country that people have built with their own hands and have died for throughout history(I mean both Germany and the USA) is obvious. Thus your question can be as accurately reflected as "whats the difference between that(Nazi-Germany), and that(Patriotic America OR Germany)", because German patriotism does not equal Nazi Facism. Damn was that as clear as mud? ------------------ No-Name Face

10-08-2001, 06:10 AM	#33
Liliara Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: August 17, 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 874	Cloudy, Nachtrafe wasn't putting down schools in general, he was talking about a post that I made. I do respect you, but darn it...does anyone read through the thread before they post? (hey, I've been accused myself, therefor I can accuse ) ------------------ Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

10-08-2001, 07:13 AM	#38
Tuor Elminster Join Date: June 17, 2001 Location: england Posts: 409	As far as Nazism goes I think we're missing one quite important point. (you'll have to bear with me here) When Hitler rose to power, or was rising to power he promised the people of Germany, affluence and jobs. The existing rulers of Germay, were old, generally not very good politicians who appeared incapable of getting Germany out of the great depression it had sunk into so the young were swayed by Hitler's oratorical skills and his brand of right wing preaching. But as well as offering the elcetorate what they wanted he also murdered, bribed and intimidated his way to power. He had his thugs on the doors of every polling station in Germany escorting those who did not plan to vote for Hitler to the booths and threatening them into voting for him. His political enemies were murdered once he was in power and the army was liberally sprinkled with high ranking officers loyal to him so a mutiny in the armed forces was never likely. He wiped out the whole SA leadership after it got him to power and executed or removed all army officers thought to be unsympathetic to him. The remaining armed forced leaders were still extremely put out about the unfairness of the treaty of Versaille. Once he was in power he gradually brought in anti-semetic laws over a period of 2-3 years and used the hitler youth and hired heavies to persecute the Jews. When Hitler was elected he probably came across as a good choice to get Germany out of a rut and relatively normal, if a bit right wing and fanatical. But it was only after a year or so people realised what was going on. By then it was to late for the normal man to do anything because groups like Hitler youth, SA, the secret police and the Nazi party itself had created such a climate of fear no one would speak out against the state and it could do what it liked. The Army was stil loyal and there were enough fanatics in teh country to keep a beady eye on those opposed to Hitler. It took a very special set of circumstances to bring Hitler to power-it was certainly more than patriotism, and patriotism did not keep him their, it was the population's fear of what would happen to them if they did not support the state's actions no matter how appalling they were. IF YOU IGNORE the policies which isolated and alienated the minority groups in Germany during his rule, Hitler's were very similar to those of the communist state. Lots of workers, state industries and utter loyalty (through intimiation of fanaticism) to the cause.

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