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Old 10-08-2001, 03:04 AM   #11
Liliara
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Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:

The question was what qualities it took in an individual person. The answer is a sense of patriotism and nationalism so strong that one is willing to follow the government and leaders blindly in the name of loyalty and duty.

Out of curiosity, where are you a professor, anyway? (Not an issue of putting anyone down, just want to know where not to send my kids. If you don't know the diference between patriotism, and what Hitler insighted his nation to, I really don't want my children (when I have them) exposed to a school who would hire you.)

Again, this is NOT a flame (although Dio welcomed flames in his post) I am really SERIOUS!!!

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And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:11 AM   #12
Liliara
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lifetime:
Doh! Right Dio I misunderstood your question.
Were you talking about why the Germans voted Hitler into power or how he gained their support AFTER coming into power?
I believe that any good speaker with half a brain can manipulate a crowd, and Hitler was quite a gifted speaker at that.

About what motivated the people? Hitler motivated the people. He promised them wealth, prosperity, freedom, and a restoration of national Pride. He promised them a nation they could be proud of. He rose to power because of the severe and harsh conditions of the people, (living under the Treaty of Versailles, the Great Depression, the loss of rightful German territory) and played with their minds and hearts to gain support for his Nazi war machine. He indoctrinated children into the Nazi cause(think the Hitler Youth, or the League of German Maidens, concentrating solely on the Aryan superiority), and made Nazism a way of life(formed cells and groups for every aspect of society, so as to better control certain groups of individuals and strengthen them to the Nazi cause).

The main difference between the Nationalistic German and the Patriotic American is that the Germans were some of the poorest in Europe. They were no longer a great power to contend with England or France, had lost their territories and their people, and their currency was badly inflated. Americans are the richest, have very high standards of living, and generally do as they please. The belief is the same: national pride, desire for strong, decisive leaders to take action against oppressers, but the motives are different. The Germans were motivated by a better life, and hope. The Americans are motivated by anger, and pride. Most German people did not want to start a World War. Most Americans don't either. But neither will stand down and see their nation be trodded upon. That is the difference, and the similarity. The circumstances are different, but patriotism will always be patriotism, no matter what, who or how its inspired.

Sometimes, when people have to choose between two evils, it can be blur as to which is the lesser.

It took no special qualities. A whole nation cannot be expected to have such a thing in common. A good Nazi was not born, he was MADE. My post is about how Hitler MADE these people, and what he used to do so. He instilled patriotism and a sense of national pride and duty. He played and built upon what was already there in every German's mind to begin with: the Treaty of Versailles. If your question is about WHAT made the Nazis(As in why the formed and also what they were made of), then it should be the Treaty of Versailles, and not patriotism or blind loyalty. The Nazi regime was about defying this treaty and bringing Germany back to power. It does not take a Patriot to make a Tyrant. Or in this case, a Nazi. The Nazis WERE patriots, and they WERE tyrants, but they were NOT made up of Patriotism. Patriotism can be for personal gain, or for the good of the nation, and in Germany's case it was for the good of the nation, which would ultimately mean good for personal gain. I dont see how American Patriots have anything to gain by cheering their country on.
I agree with MOST of what you have said. The only thing that I would add to the American side, is that we as Americans have fought very hard for our freedom, this is another driving force. When this freedom is jeopordized in any way, our patriotism is insighted, with or without any help from our government. The difference is that the Nazis were inspired by their leader, whereas America's leader is inspired by it's people.

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And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:14 AM   #13
250
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liliara:
I agree with MOST of what you have said. The only thing that I would add to the American side, is that we as Americans have fought very hard for our freedom, this is another driving force. When this freedom is jeopordized in any way, our patriotism is insighted, with or without any help from our government. The difference is that the Nazis were inspired by their leader, whereas America's leader is inspired by it's people.


whats up Liliara? how fare WWF?
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:22 AM   #14
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liliara:

Out of curiosity, where are you a professor, anyway? (Not an issue of putting anyone down, just want to know where not to send my kids. If you don't know the diference between patriotism, and what Hitler insighted his nation to, I really don't want my children (when I have them) exposed to a school who would hire you.)

Again, this is NOT a flame (although Dio welcomed flames in his post) I am really SERIOUS!!!

Liliaria, you get the strangest ideas about me.

For the record, I am not a pacifist, an atheist, nor a professor or teacher.

And anyway, my point is about patriotism leading people to blindly follow their government, not to the ends of the particular government.

Patriotism is a MORALLY NEUTRAL quality. It can be a force used both for good and bad. It is simply a tool in the hands of government leaders, to be manipulated and used for their own ends.
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:38 AM   #15
Yorick
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Interesting thread from someone who claims illumination... still, the Angel of Light's main purpose is deception.

Lifetime, you make a great response. Add to that the Deutsch collective psychology of a nation without natural boundaries, the uncertainty throughout Deutschland resultant from the failed economy, failing democracy and lost war, and the fact that time, geography, culture and history seperate Americans in 2001AD and the Deutch of 1940 and the picture of a needlessly erronious post comparing the two becomes increasingly clear.

I'd also add that Patriotism is a morally positive, rather than morally neutral value. Love is a morally positive value, and patriotism is love for ones country. Patriotism does not mean hatred of another country. Do we hate everyone else when we love a spouse?

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Old 10-08-2001, 03:47 AM   #16
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'd also add that Patriotism is a morally positive, rather than morally neutral value. Love is a morally positive value, and patriotism is love for ones country. Patriotism does not mean hatred of another country. Do we hate everyone else when we love a spouse?

The analogy is not accurate, Yorick. Politics is a very different world, very far removed from the emotion of Love.

We are not talking love other other human beings here, or love of any living being, but rather a sense of blind loyalty, a willingness to fight for the "spouse" whether they are in the right or not, and that is NOT a morally good thing.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-08-2001).]
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:52 AM   #17
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Interesting thread from someone who claims illumination... still, the Angel of Light's main purpose is deception.

Lifetime, you make a great response. Add to that the Deutsch collective psychology of a nation without natural boundaries, the uncertainty throughout Deutschland resultant from the failed economy, failing democracy and lost war, and the fact that time, geography, culture and history seperate Americans in 2001AD and the Deutch of 1940 and the picture of a needlessly erronious post comparing the two becomes increasingly clear.

Besides, Yorick, where in my post did I claim that America WAS Nazi Germany, or that the positions are the same? Huh? I am very well aware that many of the individual circumstances are unique, as they are in any particular country at any particular period of history.

If you care to read my post again, instead of throwing things into it which I did not say, you will see that I am talking about a general principle, the old nationalistic patriot sentiment of "my country right or wrong". Look at the phrase, quoted, MY COUNTRY RIGHT OR WRONG. And you claim this is not a morally neutral position? RIGHT OR WRONG.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 10-08-2001).]
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Old 10-08-2001, 03:55 AM   #18
Istaron
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lifetime:
Jews could also be steadfast, brave and patriotic and I'm sure that Hitler, though through his hatred of Jews, knew that. If he wanted loyal soldiers or patriots, he would'nt bother with his Anti-Semitic horsecrap..

I'm not too sure, but I think he wrote something of the Aryan man's superiority in his book, Mein Kampf.

You know, Germany had troubles back then, no one had jobs, the paper a bill were printed on were more worth than the bill itself.
What Hitler gave the german people was focus on something. Focus their hate. On the jews.
I bet he didn't hate jews at all (his grandmother was one). But he realized that he could use their misery to gain power.
It was as simple as that.

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Old 10-08-2001, 04:01 AM   #19
Liliara
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Join Date: August 17, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by 250:

whats up Liliara? how fare WWF?
WWF has been put on hold in light of recent issues, but I'm still working out. We will se if I end up on T.V. or in the service!

YORICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've missed you, by darn!



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And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)
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Old 10-08-2001, 04:05 AM   #20
Liliara
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
Liliaria, you get the strangest ideas about me.

For the record, I am not a pacifist, an atheist, nor a professor or teacher.


Hmmm.... thought I remembred a post where you said you were a professor.


------------------

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And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)
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