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Old 06-21-2002, 08:06 PM   #41
lroyo
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You're losing me John. Perhaps if you really have something you would like to say, you could say it in English, and not just use an unrealistic example to prove everything and nothing.

Human's evolution over millions of years has been both a physical process and a society based process. We have learnt how to live in a society through morals and ethics (usually enforced through authority). People still break these morals and ethics, and are generally looked down upon by the rest of society. The reason that Christian ethics are very similar to the ones that human beings, as time has progressed have decided are both right and helpful for society based living, are because human beings created Christianity (IMHO)!

Using Lions and Hyenas as examples seems unreasonable. They have a totally different social structure to us, which involves, as you mentioned, survival of the fittest. We, as human beings, have generally (and there are examples of where it has not been the case) believed everyone should have an equal opportunity at life. That is a rational decision.

In my opinion, Christian's do not give enough credit to the human being, and their ability to exist and evolve, without the existence of a higher being.

Avi.
 
Old 06-21-2002, 08:32 PM   #42
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aviendha:
John,

I cannot help but respond to your post. I'm not 100% sure whether you are being serious, or whether you are just raising another discussion point, but I've heard similar arguments before.

I'm also not really sure what type of person you are, so I'm not going to make any direct attacks at your personality. But are you suggesting that, if you did not believe in a God, that you would rape, steal, and generally plunder all that came before you? I am not a christian, but I still strongly believe that these things are wrong. If God is the only thing stopping you from doing them, then perhaps you belong in prison.

I believe that life has no set purpose. We each form our own purposes as we continue through life. I need no God to feel worthwhile. It seems to me that some people crave a purpose desperately, and so they cling to religion to make their life have meaning.

We live....we die. What we do in between is what really matters.

Avi.
Aviendha, I am being both 100% serious and for discusion points. Don't worry about offending me I'm a 40 year old Man, I've had guns pulled on me and I have had to pull guns. I've been near my own death , and I have stood over another human that had been runover by a car on a busy 2 lane road and heard her take her last breath, Words don't offend me.

If there was no God why not murder, rape and plunder all that came before me? If belief in God(a bioelectrical impluse after all there is no God right) is what stops me, what makes the morals or ethics(also bioelectrical impulses) of a Chem. pile make that Chem pile any less worthy of belonging in prison? After all it is just one bioelectrical impluse verses another. If we all crawled from the slime then one chem. pile's bioelectrical impluse is as valid as nay other's. And not to agree with that is intellectual dishonesty, because it is doing the very thing that people of faith are accused of. Setting of one bioelectrical impluse (faith, belief, obediance to God) above all other Bioelectrical impluses.

If by clinging to religion you are saying it is a crutch, You bet it is! Thank God for the crutch! If someone was to have a broken leg and needed a crutch but did not use it would not any rational Chem. pile think that person was being foolish? What makes needing a crutch to lean on for the broken (sinful) spirit any less valid then needing a crutch for the broken body?

Why is what we do in between what really matters? What makes it matter? It seems that craving the bioelectrical impluse of faith is not the way to go. Why is clinging to the bioelectrical impluse of we each form our own purpose any more valid? What matter can it give between birth and death? After all we are but piles of Chemicals that will soon become rotting flesh. Is it because we have bioelectrical impluses we call thinking? How arrogant of Humans! To beleive that bioelectrical impluses of the Chem. piles we call humans are superior to the bioelectrical impluses of say the Chem. pile we call a puppy sleeping at my feet!
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Old 06-21-2002, 08:45 PM   #43
Moni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
I didn't intend to insult, I'm saying that it's weak minded to refuse to acknowledge a point to existence without a diety, that's my opinion.
I understood that as your opinion and not as an insult if that makes any difference to you (I am a Christian but of no denomination).
All too often, people who believe in God fail to accept the fact that others don't but that doesn't necessarily make them weak-minded, so much as it makes them (IMO) close-minded...the same way someone who doesn't believe in God would argue the other side of the perspective without ever seeing the others' point of view.
Just understand this is a world of words without the benefit of tone and we must choose them carefully in order to show respect to our fellow forum members.
(This is coming from someone who ought to know lol)

Welcome to Ironworks btw. [img]smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 06-21-2002, 08:58 PM   #44
Oblivion437
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 17, 2002
Location: NY
Age: 37
Posts: 723
I'm saying there is no difference, man is not more than animal. God need not be the source of morality. Why say a prayer when you can build a hospital? Why pay a priest when you can train more doctors? I see the world through a set of Paranoid, petrified eyes that suffer from the disillusionment from faith in religion, mankind, or any institution. If you can't convince yourself not to kill without outside help, you SHOULD be in prison. I don't need to be told not to kill, for the following reasons:
1-The person didn't do anything to deserve to die that I can assert. 2-If the person did, it's not my business.
3-To hurt someone they must make it personal.
4-I wouldn't kill someone unless I expected I should die myself (A common Western way of thinking, and arbitrated as 'original' religious ideal) and thus my crimes would pay for themselves, or rather, they don't. Men murder children, and die, and get away with it, one of the hardest things about being an Atheist is accepting that Child pornographers, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, burglars and other such types don't suffer from absolute punishment. I can't just join a religion to say that they do, it goes against my idea that the only way the human condition shall improve is by human action.


[ 06-21-2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Oblivion437 ]
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Old 06-21-2002, 09:10 PM   #45
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
I didn't intend to insult, I'm saying that it's weak minded to refuse to acknowledge a point to existence without a diety, that's my opinion. I won't step down from that, nor will I be 'railroaded' in the manner you claim I am 'rail roading', by threatening to ban me! Fear is an effective tool of management, but NOT an effective tool to build positive sentiment.
Nothing personal Oblivion437 but that is exactly what I have been asking, What is the point of exsitence? and what makes that point valid? Instead of answering there are statements of weakmindedness.
Answer and ask, or ask and answer what ever you wish. I realize that you are new to this forum, so PM Skywalker (I hope I'm not over stepping my bounds here Mark) he seems to be a kindred spirit (pun intended ) He'll tell you that I'll discuss with you and not take very many things personal. Execptions being lying, intellectual dishonesty, or hypocrisy, offensises that that result in the following from me
Lying: total dismissal of All opinions and further discussions because the opinions and thoughts of a liar is usless to me. My own personal choice.
Intellectual dishonesty: Many more questions and lots of "Harrisisms"
And "Harrisisms" aren't a pretty thing if you value intellectual honesty
Hypocrisy: I jump with both feet, and go for the jugular. I have no problem calling a "spade a spade" (as in the gardening tool where the saying originated)
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Old 06-21-2002, 09:22 PM   #46
Oblivion437
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I'm saying, what if we prove God wrong, can you still stand on your own 2 feet then? Which is my point, it's weak to not follow an adaptable set of rules, ones that pertain to themselves and a world that is constantly changing. Life doesn't have a 'real' meaning, only a perceived meaning. You could very well go ahead and murder some people, but God won't stop you, we will. And if God isn't there, we'll still find a proper way to deal with you. That is what our world is about, that is secular law. It's far from perfect as it stands, that is to say the specifics of legal code, but it still is the best we can do. Why exist for some promise of an absolute, when the guarantee is reality? A reality that you can't run from? There are those who have argued your point, and committed mass murder, and felt they got away with it as there was no absolute in their minds. If we did our best in bringing them to justice, then they HAVE been punished. The very nature of your arguement is exactly what allowed religion to get to power, stay in power, and strangle to still do so, in modern times.
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Old 06-21-2002, 09:24 PM   #47
Moni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
I'm saying there is no difference, man is not more than animal. God need not be the source of morality. Why say a prayer when you can build a hospital? Why pay a priest when you can train more doctors? I see the world through a set of Paranoid, petrified eyes that suffer from the disillusionment from faith in religion, mankind, or any institution. If you can't convince yourself not to kill without outside help, you SHOULD be in prison. I don't need to be told not to kill, for the following reasons:
1-The person didn't do anything to deserve to die that I can assert. 2-If the person did, it's not my business.
3-To hurt someone they must make it personal.
4-I wouldn't kill someone unless I expected I should die myself (A common Western way of thinking, and arbitrated as 'original' religious ideal) and thus my crimes would pay for themselves, or rather, they don't. Men murder children, and die, and get away with it, one of the hardest things about being an Atheist is accepting that Child pornographers, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, burglars and other such types don't suffer from absolute punishment. I can't just join a religion to say that they do, it goes against my idea that the only way the human condition shall improve is by human action.
Man can rise above the animal inside and it doesn't take religion to do it, just an understanding of human emotion as natural reactions to different situations.
God may not be your source of morality but what applies to you personally doesn't need to apply to every to everyone else in order to make the world a better place to live in.
Why would you refuse or deny prayer to those who believe in its power (me) or refuse or deny the religious their leaders if they need counseling or guidance from a religious perspective?
Medicine and religion are not one and the same from different points of view in most religions. You can find people of most all denominations in hospitals around the world at this moment who rely on both doctors and God to help them recover. Who is to say that their recovery doesn't require both?
Morality and religion go far beyond reasons not to kill. They are a way of life that keep people in peace with themselves and the world around them and they do not have to be intertwined in order to maintain inner peace.
The human condition won't improve without human action. It starts with one individual changing themselves and if it takes God to change them, all the more power to the rest of us who see the need for change.

You say "I see the world through a set of Paranoid, petrified eyes that suffer from the disillusionment from faith in religion, mankind, or any institution."
I don't know what to say to that. I hope you feel better soon. [img]smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 06-21-2002, 09:35 PM   #48
The Hunter of Jahanna
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Join Date: September 25, 2001
Location: NY , NY
Age: 63
Posts: 960
response to john D. "chem piles .....stuff.....chem piles"

My answer is nothing. There is nothing wrong with the strong ruleing the weak, it happens here with mods and regular members. Nothing wrong with killing other people, stealing,or anything else that is a "crime". It is only wrong because society at large says it is and imposes their will upon the rest of humanity. If stripping this rock to the bare bones will make my time as a sentient chem pile a little easier or more enjoyable , I'm all for it.

As for the morals of us chem piles I am all for people having their own internal set and keeping them that way. I.E. , if you think that stealing is wrong then dont , but dont get on my case if I load the contents of your neighbors house into my van and drive away. Unfortunately I am in the minority in that sentiment and must have the moral compass of society at large imposed upon me. I think if people lived more animals the world would be a better place for everything on it.Survival of the fittest should be the rule , NOT the exception. If you go and spend a little time in montana out in the middle of no where you will understand a little of what I mean.

Quote:
How arrogant of Humans! To beleive that bioelectrical impluses of the Chem. piles we call humans are superior to the bioelectrical impluses of say the Chem. pile we call a puppy sleeping at my feet!
this is the only thing I am directly quoteing because I couldnt agree with this sentiment more!! If humanity stoped carrying aroud that big brain of ours and used it to think with once in a while a lot of people would realize that humanity is realy less human then they think it is and that the puppy has the right idea.
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Old 06-21-2002, 09:36 PM   #49
John D Harris
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Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
Quote:
Originally posted by Aviendha:
You're losing me John. Perhaps if you really have something you would like to say, you could say it in English, and not just use an unrealistic example to prove everything and nothing.

Human's evolution over millions of years has been both a physical process and a society based process. We have learnt how to live in a society through morals and ethics (usually enforced through authority). People still break these morals and ethics, and are generally looked down upon by the rest of society. The reason that Christian ethics are very similar to the ones that human beings, as time has progressed have decided are both right and helpful for society based living, are because human beings created Christianity (IMHO)!

Using Lions and Hyenas as examples seems unreasonable. They have a totally different social structure to us, which involves, as you mentioned, survival of the fittest. We, as human beings, have generally (and there are examples of where it has not been the case) believed everyone should have an equal opportunity at life. That is a rational decision.

In my opinion, Christian's do not give enough credit to the human being, and their ability to exist and evolve, without the existence of a higher being.

Avi.
Miss Aviendha Ma'am (assumuption made to your gender, please forgive me if I'm wrong)
I did use english, I merely substituted Chem. piles for Humans, or people, because if all we are is evloved chemical slime then lets call us what we are. Not some label to make us feel better. Useing Lions and Hyenas is not unreasonable, because they crawled from the same chemical slime that we did. In order to dismiss their social structure then any social structure differing from the one that the viewer is in must also be dimissed.

I hold the opposite opinion of Christianity's credit to Humans to evolve. One of the cornerstones of Christianity is freewill, the ability to exist and evolve.
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Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864
66:KIA 5008
67:KIA 9378
68:KIA 14594
69:KIA 9414
70:KIA 4221
71:KIA 1380
72:KIA 300

Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585
2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting

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Old 06-21-2002, 10:09 PM   #50
John D Harris
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Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
Quote:
Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna:
response to john D. "chem piles .....stuff.....chem piles"

My answer is nothing. There is nothing wrong with the strong ruleing the weak, it happens here with mods and regular members. Nothing wrong with killing other people, stealing,or anything else that is a "crime". It is only wrong because society at large says it is and imposes their will upon the rest of humanity. If stripping this rock to the bare bones will make my time as a sentient chem pile a little easier or more enjoyable , I'm all for it.

As for the morals of us chem piles I am all for people having their own internal set and keeping them that way. I.E. , if you think that stealing is wrong then dont , but dont get on my case if I load the contents of your neighbors house into my van and drive away. Unfortunately I am in the minority in that sentiment and must have the moral compass of society at large imposed upon me. I think if people lived more animals the world would be a better place for everything on it.Survival of the fittest should be the rule , NOT the exception. If you go and spend a little time in montana out in the middle of no where you will understand a little of what I mean.

quote:
How arrogant of Humans! To beleive that bioelectrical impluses of the Chem. piles we call humans are superior to the bioelectrical impluses of say the Chem. pile we call a puppy sleeping at my feet!
this is the only thing I am directly quoteing because I couldnt agree with this sentiment more!! If humanity stoped carrying aroud that big brain of ours and used it to think with once in a while a lot of people would realize that humanity is realy less human then they think it is and that the puppy has the right idea.[/QUOTE]Well I've seen it all, another Yankee, Athiest, and I'd bet a Liberal that I could sit down and have a beer or beverage of choice with, what's this world coming to? The Hunter of Jahanna if you ever find youself in the "Heart if Dixie" (Alabama) PM me and I see what I can do about the beverage of choice. "Hale" (southern for where Gen. Sherman is going for what He did to Etlanta) now I have to apologize to you, incase any of my replies to your posts where out of order, and reread them now that I have a better idea of where you are coming from.
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67:KIA 9378
68:KIA 14594
69:KIA 9414
70:KIA 4221
71:KIA 1380
72:KIA 300

Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585
2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting

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