06-21-2002, 08:06 PM | #41 |
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You're losing me John. Perhaps if you really have something you would like to say, you could say it in English, and not just use an unrealistic example to prove everything and nothing.
Human's evolution over millions of years has been both a physical process and a society based process. We have learnt how to live in a society through morals and ethics (usually enforced through authority). People still break these morals and ethics, and are generally looked down upon by the rest of society. The reason that Christian ethics are very similar to the ones that human beings, as time has progressed have decided are both right and helpful for society based living, are because human beings created Christianity (IMHO)! Using Lions and Hyenas as examples seems unreasonable. They have a totally different social structure to us, which involves, as you mentioned, survival of the fittest. We, as human beings, have generally (and there are examples of where it has not been the case) believed everyone should have an equal opportunity at life. That is a rational decision. In my opinion, Christian's do not give enough credit to the human being, and their ability to exist and evolve, without the existence of a higher being. Avi. |
06-21-2002, 08:32 PM | #42 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
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If there was no God why not murder, rape and plunder all that came before me? If belief in God(a bioelectrical impluse after all there is no God right) is what stops me, what makes the morals or ethics(also bioelectrical impulses) of a Chem. pile make that Chem pile any less worthy of belonging in prison? After all it is just one bioelectrical impluse verses another. If we all crawled from the slime then one chem. pile's bioelectrical impluse is as valid as nay other's. And not to agree with that is intellectual dishonesty, because it is doing the very thing that people of faith are accused of. Setting of one bioelectrical impluse (faith, belief, obediance to God) above all other Bioelectrical impluses. If by clinging to religion you are saying it is a crutch, You bet it is! Thank God for the crutch! If someone was to have a broken leg and needed a crutch but did not use it would not any rational Chem. pile think that person was being foolish? What makes needing a crutch to lean on for the broken (sinful) spirit any less valid then needing a crutch for the broken body? Why is what we do in between what really matters? What makes it matter? It seems that craving the bioelectrical impluse of faith is not the way to go. Why is clinging to the bioelectrical impluse of we each form our own purpose any more valid? What matter can it give between birth and death? After all we are but piles of Chemicals that will soon become rotting flesh. Is it because we have bioelectrical impluses we call thinking? How arrogant of Humans! To beleive that bioelectrical impluses of the Chem. piles we call humans are superior to the bioelectrical impluses of say the Chem. pile we call a puppy sleeping at my feet!
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06-21-2002, 08:45 PM | #43 | |
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All too often, people who believe in God fail to accept the fact that others don't but that doesn't necessarily make them weak-minded, so much as it makes them (IMO) close-minded...the same way someone who doesn't believe in God would argue the other side of the perspective without ever seeing the others' point of view. Just understand this is a world of words without the benefit of tone and we must choose them carefully in order to show respect to our fellow forum members. (This is coming from someone who ought to know lol) Welcome to Ironworks btw. [img]smile.gif[/img] |
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06-21-2002, 08:58 PM | #44 |
Baaz Draconian
Join Date: June 17, 2002
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I'm saying there is no difference, man is not more than animal. God need not be the source of morality. Why say a prayer when you can build a hospital? Why pay a priest when you can train more doctors? I see the world through a set of Paranoid, petrified eyes that suffer from the disillusionment from faith in religion, mankind, or any institution. If you can't convince yourself not to kill without outside help, you SHOULD be in prison. I don't need to be told not to kill, for the following reasons:
1-The person didn't do anything to deserve to die that I can assert. 2-If the person did, it's not my business. 3-To hurt someone they must make it personal. 4-I wouldn't kill someone unless I expected I should die myself (A common Western way of thinking, and arbitrated as 'original' religious ideal) and thus my crimes would pay for themselves, or rather, they don't. Men murder children, and die, and get away with it, one of the hardest things about being an Atheist is accepting that Child pornographers, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, burglars and other such types don't suffer from absolute punishment. I can't just join a religion to say that they do, it goes against my idea that the only way the human condition shall improve is by human action. [ 06-21-2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Oblivion437 ]
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06-21-2002, 09:10 PM | #45 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
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Answer and ask, or ask and answer what ever you wish. I realize that you are new to this forum, so PM Skywalker (I hope I'm not over stepping my bounds here Mark) he seems to be a kindred spirit (pun intended ) He'll tell you that I'll discuss with you and not take very many things personal. Execptions being lying, intellectual dishonesty, or hypocrisy, offensises that that result in the following from me Lying: total dismissal of All opinions and further discussions because the opinions and thoughts of a liar is usless to me. My own personal choice. Intellectual dishonesty: Many more questions and lots of "Harrisisms" And "Harrisisms" aren't a pretty thing if you value intellectual honesty Hypocrisy: I jump with both feet, and go for the jugular. I have no problem calling a "spade a spade" (as in the gardening tool where the saying originated)
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06-21-2002, 09:22 PM | #46 |
Baaz Draconian
Join Date: June 17, 2002
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I'm saying, what if we prove God wrong, can you still stand on your own 2 feet then? Which is my point, it's weak to not follow an adaptable set of rules, ones that pertain to themselves and a world that is constantly changing. Life doesn't have a 'real' meaning, only a perceived meaning. You could very well go ahead and murder some people, but God won't stop you, we will. And if God isn't there, we'll still find a proper way to deal with you. That is what our world is about, that is secular law. It's far from perfect as it stands, that is to say the specifics of legal code, but it still is the best we can do. Why exist for some promise of an absolute, when the guarantee is reality? A reality that you can't run from? There are those who have argued your point, and committed mass murder, and felt they got away with it as there was no absolute in their minds. If we did our best in bringing them to justice, then they HAVE been punished. The very nature of your arguement is exactly what allowed religion to get to power, stay in power, and strangle to still do so, in modern times.
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06-21-2002, 09:24 PM | #47 | |
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God may not be your source of morality but what applies to you personally doesn't need to apply to every to everyone else in order to make the world a better place to live in. Why would you refuse or deny prayer to those who believe in its power (me) or refuse or deny the religious their leaders if they need counseling or guidance from a religious perspective? Medicine and religion are not one and the same from different points of view in most religions. You can find people of most all denominations in hospitals around the world at this moment who rely on both doctors and God to help them recover. Who is to say that their recovery doesn't require both? Morality and religion go far beyond reasons not to kill. They are a way of life that keep people in peace with themselves and the world around them and they do not have to be intertwined in order to maintain inner peace. The human condition won't improve without human action. It starts with one individual changing themselves and if it takes God to change them, all the more power to the rest of us who see the need for change. You say "I see the world through a set of Paranoid, petrified eyes that suffer from the disillusionment from faith in religion, mankind, or any institution." I don't know what to say to that. I hope you feel better soon. [img]smile.gif[/img] |
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06-21-2002, 09:35 PM | #48 | |
Emerald Dragon
Join Date: September 25, 2001
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response to john D. "chem piles .....stuff.....chem piles"
My answer is nothing. There is nothing wrong with the strong ruleing the weak, it happens here with mods and regular members. Nothing wrong with killing other people, stealing,or anything else that is a "crime". It is only wrong because society at large says it is and imposes their will upon the rest of humanity. If stripping this rock to the bare bones will make my time as a sentient chem pile a little easier or more enjoyable , I'm all for it. As for the morals of us chem piles I am all for people having their own internal set and keeping them that way. I.E. , if you think that stealing is wrong then dont , but dont get on my case if I load the contents of your neighbors house into my van and drive away. Unfortunately I am in the minority in that sentiment and must have the moral compass of society at large imposed upon me. I think if people lived more animals the world would be a better place for everything on it.Survival of the fittest should be the rule , NOT the exception. If you go and spend a little time in montana out in the middle of no where you will understand a little of what I mean. Quote:
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06-21-2002, 09:36 PM | #49 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
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I did use english, I merely substituted Chem. piles for Humans, or people, because if all we are is evloved chemical slime then lets call us what we are. Not some label to make us feel better. Useing Lions and Hyenas is not unreasonable, because they crawled from the same chemical slime that we did. In order to dismiss their social structure then any social structure differing from the one that the viewer is in must also be dimissed. I hold the opposite opinion of Christianity's credit to Humans to evolve. One of the cornerstones of Christianity is freewill, the ability to exist and evolve.
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06-21-2002, 10:09 PM | #50 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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