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Old 02-28-2003, 03:11 PM   #1
Timber Loftis
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Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
I hate it when the politicians put the damned riders in spending bills. It's called "pork barrel" and sucks whether it buys things Lefties or Righties want. Here's an email I got from NRDC:

Dear NRDC BioGems Defender,

I am contacting you by email because the Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge is in imminent and grave danger. [snip: part asking for money]

The White House and its Senate allies are vowing to open the Arctic
Refuge to devastating oil development by tying its fate to a federal
budget bill within the next few weeks.

This back-door ploy is a blatant attempt to avoid a public debate and
an open vote on destroying one of our greatest natural treasures.
President Bush knows full well he might lose such a vote, as he did
just one year ago.

That's why Senate leaders will try to sneak through their Arctic-
drilling provision by attaching it to a "must-pass" budget bill,
making it very difficult for pro-environment Republican moderates to
vote no. Those moderates will be under tremendous pressure from the
White House to get in line with its "Drain America First" energy
plan -- especially during this time of impending war with Iraq.

Make no mistake: the vast majority of Americans oppose drilling in
the Arctic Refuge, even in the event of war or a cut-off of our
Middle East oil supply. But NRDC must move swiftly to alert and
organize that opposition -- before the U.S. Senate capitulates to the
White House and the oil lobby.

The Arctic Refuge is the only remaining piece of Alaska's spectacular
northern coast that is off-limits to the oil giants and thus belongs
solely to wildlife. This pristine wilderness is our nation's largest
denning site for pregnant polar bears and the only birthing ground
for the 180,000-member Porcupine caribou herd.

The oil giants would turn this extraordinary wildlife nursery into a
vast polluted oil field. What's more, destroying the Arctic Refuge
would do little or nothing to further America's energy independence.
Improving the fuel efficiency of our cars and SUVs would provide far
more energy than drilling in the Arctic Refuge -- and it would do so
more quickly, more cheaply and without destroying our natural
heritage.

Only one group will benefit from destroying the Arctic Refuge: the
oil giants. Everyone else loses. Our nation's last pristine arctic
wilderness will be polluted forever. Wildlife will suffer and die.
And consumers will remain dependent on a volatile oil market.

That's why sacrificing the Arctic Refuge for the profits of a few oil
titans is offensive to the majority of Americans of all parties.

And that's why I'm asking for your financial help to mobilize
millions of Americans for the approaching showdown in the U.S. Senate
over the fate of the Arctic Refuge.

[snip: more parts asking for money]

Sincerely,

John H. Adams
President
NRDC (Natural Resources Defense Council)

. . .

BioGems: Saving Endangered Wild Places
A project of the Natural Resources Defense Council
http://www.savebiogems.org
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Old 02-28-2003, 03:19 PM   #2
Attalus
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Join Date: November 26, 2001
Location: Texas
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Well, Timber, as you know, I am rather prone to support drilling in the Arctic Reserve, so I guess that I'll send any money I was going to send to them to the RNC.
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Old 02-28-2003, 03:33 PM   #3
Timber Loftis
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Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Originally posted by Attalus:
Well, Timber, as you know, I am rather prone to support drilling in the Arctic Reserve, so I guess that I'll send any money I was going to send to them to the RNC.
But would you mind stating why you support drilling there. Is there any standard to which you hold a decision to harm untouched nature? What is the standard (note: 2 parts - (1) level of NEED before drilling and/or (2) level of harm you must be doing to nix the need-based decision)? Does the decision to drill there fit those standards, and why?

You may have told me this before Attalus, and if so I'm sorry I forgot.
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Old 02-28-2003, 06:54 PM   #4
MagiK
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Uhh first, TL I thought "pork" was when they did that to bring spending back to their home states? I didn't know it meant all of that crap....but the expert and major teacher would be Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia [img]smile.gif[/img]

Secondly, its about damn time somebody used that place for something. Having been there, I can tell you, that this side of siberia there isn't amore useless waste of space on the planet.

Edit: Your untouched nature is a freezing cold tundra with permafrost that goes down several feet. The only time that area will be truely usefull to anyone is when the axis of the earth tilts or the global warming actually happens. The caribou and other wild life will do just fine even after drilling, they lived through the Alaska Pipeline, and they will survive drilling there. As for how much oil is or isn't there....Neither side really has any idea, just guesses and suppositions but every little bit helps....or we could do nothing and just sit on our hands all the time

Edit 2: I really hate it when the eco-people show grass and trees and butterflys when campaigning about the arctic...as if any of that has anything to do with ANWAR ...sheesh.


[ 02-28-2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 02-28-2003, 07:06 PM   #5
Timber Loftis
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Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
Is this what you are talking about, MagiK? Are you saying those pictures are in no way taken in the ANWAR? What about the birds and wolves that were part of Eisenhower setting aside the ANWAR.

In response to the "uselessness" of the place I'll note that it's bollocks. Nature isn't about being "useful" in the least. And land not set aside will be taken by human activity sooner or later. But, I'll trade you the ANWAR for an equal amount of the highly bio-rich swamps in FL that are continually being churned up to make new suburbs for those with bling bling.

It's like watching bacteria in a culture spread and consume itself. Humans know no equilibrium with the world.

[ 02-28-2003, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]
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Old 02-28-2003, 09:20 PM   #6
Chewbacca
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Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
Purely speculation, I have wondered if these inflated gas prices are part of a bigger picture to lend creedance to the argument that there is need to drill in that great pristine wilderness.

Although it doesn't suprise me, I am disappointed that Bush and the oil-crowd of lawmakers that are running the place continue to prey on what some consider neccessary, beautiful, and others consider sacred as well:

Unfettered, pristine Nature.

That is worth paying more for gas if it comes down to it for me.

Thanks for the website TL, at least we will have pictures to remind us of the place in the worst case scenario.
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Old 03-01-2003, 12:05 AM   #7
Djinn Raffo
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Join Date: March 11, 2001
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I tried to send a letter to congress there TL. But they don't accept non-us letters unfortunatly.. Sucks..

Don't drill for oil there please.
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Old 03-01-2003, 09:32 AM   #8
Attalus
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Timber, I will just say that I don't know of a single case where drilling for oil harmed an ecosystem. True, arctic and desert environments are fragile, but the middle eastern fields are in desert, and I don't see anyone pleading with the sheikhs to stop their drilling, there. The desert grassslands that used to exist around the Big Bend area of Texas was destroyed, but by sheep farming, not drilling, which is confined to a few spots of an acre at most, and the roads to connect them.
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Old 03-01-2003, 11:59 AM   #9
MagiK
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TL neither of those pictures were of ANWAR...well the polar bears p[icture is tight enough it could have been anywhere I suppose...but that big green grassy plain is NOT ANWAR [img]smile.gif[/img] I don't know where they got that shot (probably somewhere in Canada).
I also never said that there wasn't wild life there. I only said that it would continue to thrive even after drilling and pumping starts. To leave a resource unused is to deny its purpose and potential, after all why would "mother gaia" provide the resource if it weren't for man to use?

Sounds a little like Maifest destiny no? Seriously, that green grassy picture is NOT ANWAR.
 
Old 03-01-2003, 01:54 PM   #10
John D Harris
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Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
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TL, I agree about the pork added to the spending Bill.
Now on to the Oil drilling:
Here's the problem I have with the eviromentalists It all or nothing with them there can be no compromise at all. they seem to define compromise as giving in 100% to them. They also are extrme alarmists (SP?) Witness this statement from the site you linked in your answer to MagiK "Crucial wildlife habitat will be forever destroyed" Forever destroyed, Forever destroyed give me a break. Anwar is what a couple of 1,000,000 square acres. tell me how some 20ft wide roads and and oil pumps (that take up space measured in SQUARE FEET) are going to destroy 1,000,000's of acres? Oh I could buy that agrument if the intent was to dump the oil allover the ground but it is not the intent. No oil company ever is going to spill the oil for fun, that is how they make their money. Remember that is ALL BIG OIL is after is money (according to the enviromenalists) So if BIG OIL is only after money, and that is all they are after then it is 100% against their #1 interest to spill even 1 drop of oil. 1 drop of oil costs them money remember? I know you are going to argue what about accidents? Well what about them? they can happen, life is tough. But remember the BIG OIL only wants money, THE foundation of your arguement. When ever there is an accident IT is in BIG OIL's best interest to fix it ASAP because each drop of oil spilt is less money for them. Since greed is their primary focus in life then their greed will make them that much more effective in fixxing the promblem. Remember BIG OIL=greedy, takeover kind of people, not sit arround and talk about it kind of people. SO if there is a problem they'll be fixxing it before the sit arround and talk about it's get off their behinds.

TL next time you are on a trip flying across this country sit in a window seat and look out from 30,000+ feet. Notice the great expances of wildnerness, open land, compared to the small size of the roads, and houses. And try and justify how those small roads, seldom used are going to kill off all the wildlife. Then ask hunters who spend time in the open spaces if the roads have killed off all the wildlife?

When you travel arround the suburds at night have you ever seen a deer in the suburds, a fox rabbits, coyote, raccoon or any other wild animal? of course you have they are all over the suburbs. I have.

EDIT: I forgot heres a good one for you. I beleive you've spent time in Vermont, as have I. How much of Vermont's forests fit into the enviromentailist diffintion of virgin forests? All? 75%? 50%? 25%? try less then 5% In the late 1800's and early 1900's Vermont was 95%+ Deforested! ( I really want to say less then 1%, but at my age the grey matter hard drive drops useless info ) From my daughter's 2nd grade school books, and other museums, exhibits arround the State. So by diffintion it is ok to completely cut down almost every tree in Vermont.

[ 03-01-2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]
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