The hour of our death - Page 3

Neb · 02-25-2002, 06:18 PM

quote:

That's the approach adopted by Jean-Paul Sartre, actually: "Once God is dead everything is permitted."

I think that I once heard evidence that "belief" or "faith" could change things, physical evidence actually, working in the way that things changed to what it was believed that they were(Or was it to the opposite?), so if this is true, and people stopped believing in God(In any for or with any name) as much as they used to, would he/she/it then not die?

So if God IS dead.... IS everything permitted? Or does the rules that he/she/it created still matter? Does the afterlife still exist?

(Sorry, but once past midnight my posts start acquiring a certain rambling quality.)

K T Ong · 02-25-2002, 06:39 PM

quote:
(Sorry, but once past midnight my posts start acquiring a certain rambling quality.)

Hey, it's around 7 plus in the morning where I am now.

(This post is sent shortly after Nebbie's.)

quote:
I think that I once heard evidence that "belief" or "faith" could change things, physical evidence actually, working in the way that things changed to what it was believed that they were(Or was it to the opposite?)

I seem to have heard of that somewhere before, too. Only trouble is, if two different (groups of) people entertain very different, perhaps even opposed views or beliefs regarding 'reality' (such as when I believe in God and you don't), then how shall reality change itself to suit the beliefs of both parties? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Or maybe it's just that you see things differently when you adopt a certain belief, not that they actually change in accordance with your belief?... (shrugs shoulders)

Neb · 02-25-2002, 06:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by K T Ong:

I seem to have heard of that somewhere before, too. Only trouble is, if two different (groups of) people entertain very different, perhaps even opposed views or beliefs regarding 'reality' (such as when I believe in God and you don't), then how shall reality change itself to suit the beliefs of both parties? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Or maybe it's just that you see things differently when you adopt a certain belief, not that they actually change in accordance with your belief?... (shrugs shoulders)

Eh..... At 0:30 am it sounds believable... I'll see what I think about it tomorrow [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Azred · 02-25-2002, 07:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Neb:
I think that I once heard evidence that "belief" or "faith" could change things, physical evidence actually, working in the way that things changed to what it was believed that they were(Or was it to the opposite?), so if this is true, and people stopped believing in God(In any for or with any name) as much as they used to, would he/she/it then not die?

In quantum physics, how you make an observation can change what is observed, when you make an observation can change what is observed, and--most importantly--it appears that sometimes why you make an observation changes what is observed. Combine this with the fact that at the quantum level every possible event happens--even ones that should be impossible--and then realize that this is the foundation of the universe and, pretty soon, you will find yourself posting messages on boards about how what you believe influences what you see. Anyway, my point is that what you believe has much to do with what you see.

God is as much a concept as anything else; hence, God cannot die. Whether you believe in God or not is up to you. People do have a built-in desire to believe in something "bigger" than themselves, though, even if that something is the belief that "there is no such thing as God". Go figure.

02-26-2002, 12:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Azred:

In quantum physics, how you make an observation can change what is observed, when you make an observation can change what is observed, and--most importantly--it appears that sometimes why you make an observation changes what is observed. Combine this with the fact that at the quantum level every possible event happens--even ones that should be impossible--and then realize that this is the foundation of the universe and, pretty soon, you will find yourself posting messages on boards about how what you believe influences what you see. Anyway, my point is that what you believe has much to do with what you see.

God is as much a concept as anything else; hence, God cannot die. Whether you believe in God or not is up to you. People do have a built-in desire to believe in something "bigger" than themselves, though, even if that something is the belief that "there is no such thing as God". Go figure.

Wheeeee! Another science geek!
How about this: First, you remove spin-paired electrons from each other to a distance at which the speed of light would create a measurable effect, then change the spin on one of the electrons, and presto, the other changes to match. Instantaneously. No measurable lag whatsoever.
I would posit that this observable and reproducible event is the kernel about which sympathetic magic, (voodoo in particular) is built. The concept that you can effect change in a remote system by influencing an immediate piece of that system is at least somewhat validated by this experiment.

AzureWolf · 02-26-2002, 02:59 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Evil Al:
I've heard some people say that it is cause we are so afraid of dying that we invent something that takes the edge off the fear, does anyone agree with that? I tend not to

I believe that very much, Neb's absolute denial is a prime example of it. He is scared to admit there cannot be nothing after you die so he HAS to believe there is something else. So it takes away his fear of death to an extent.

AzureWolf · 02-26-2002, 03:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Neb:

I really don't understand how people can believe this without being horribly depressed by it.... Imagine.... Just forever without feeling anything ever again.... Without even thinking.....

I believe that and its not in the least depressing [img]smile.gif[/img]
Just pushes us to make the most of the time we have left on earth while we live. And as for not having to care about anything that you do in life since we dont believe in an afterlife/reincarnation is so untrue its laughable. The consequences of our actions affect us in this life.

Neb · 02-26-2002, 10:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by AzureWolf:

I believe that and its not in the least depressing [img]smile.gif[/img]
Just pushes us to make the most of the time we have left on earth while we live. And as for not having to care about anything that you do in life since we don't believe in an afterlife/reincarnation is so untrue its laughable. The consequences of our actions affect us in this life.

You know, I have the perfect argument against you, but I just can't word it, and even if I could I probably shouldn't, last time we discussed this I seem to remember the discussion getting rather unfriendly....

Azred · 02-26-2002, 11:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Absynthe:
Wheeeee! Another science geek!
How about this: First, you remove spin-paired electrons from each other to a distance at which the speed of light would create a measurable effect, then change the spin on one of the electrons, and presto, the other changes to match. Instantaneously. No measurable lag whatsoever.
I would posit that this observable and reproducible event is the kernel about which sympathetic magic, (voodoo in particular) is built. The concept that you can effect change in a remote system by influencing an immediate piece of that system is at least somewhat validated by this experiment.

Ah, yes. The Bell effect. The only piece of information you need to realize that there are mysteries in the universe we cannot explain and that we haven't even yet uncovered.

K T Ong · 02-26-2002, 07:15 PM

quote:
How about this: First, you remove spin-paired electrons from each other to a distance at which the speed of light would create a measurable effect, then change the spin on one of the electrons, and presto, the other changes to match. Instantaneously. No measurable lag whatsoever.

Some scientists like Erwin Schrodinger, David Bohm and Fritjof Capra see in examples like this an indication of a Universe in which all things exist in a state of fundamental unity. All things are one. Thus my being is really one with that of the Cosmos, and there can be in fact no death to speak of -- nor any birth, for that matter -- since my true being is in fact co-existent with that of the Cosmos. This insight is in fact shared by many if not most of the world's mystical traditions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

quote:
I believe that and its not in the least depressing
Just pushes us to make the most of the time we have left on earth while we live.

One is very much apt to wonder if folks like AzureWolf have really come to sit down and ponder carefully the prospect of their own death. In any case, it would seem to me as dogmatic to believe that we cease to exist at death as to believe we have an eternal soul. We need to present the evidence to support whichever belief we happen to profess.

quote:
And as for not having to care about anything that you do in life since we dont believe in an afterlife/reincarnation is so untrue its laughable.

Why is it untrue?

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

02-25-2002, 06:18 PM	#21
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 38 Posts: 8,802	quote: That's the approach adopted by Jean-Paul Sartre, actually: "Once God is dead everything is permitted." I think that I once heard evidence that "belief" or "faith" could change things, physical evidence actually, working in the way that things changed to what it was believed that they were(Or was it to the opposite?), so if this is true, and people stopped believing in God(In any for or with any name) as much as they used to, would he/she/it then not die? So if God IS dead.... IS everything permitted? Or does the rules that he/she/it created still matter? Does the afterlife still exist? (Sorry, but once past midnight my posts start acquiring a certain rambling quality.)

02-25-2002, 06:39 PM	#22
K T Ong Symbol of Cyric Join Date: January 27, 2002 Location: Plateau of Singapore Age: 60 Posts: 1,230	quote: (Sorry, but once past midnight my posts start acquiring a certain rambling quality.) Hey, it's around 7 plus in the morning where I am now. (This post is sent shortly after Nebbie's.) quote: I think that I once heard evidence that "belief" or "faith" could change things, physical evidence actually, working in the way that things changed to what it was believed that they were(Or was it to the opposite?) I seem to have heard of that somewhere before, too. Only trouble is, if two different (groups of) people entertain very different, perhaps even opposed views or beliefs regarding 'reality' (such as when I believe in God and you don't), then how shall reality change itself to suit the beliefs of both parties? [img]smile.gif[/img] Or maybe it's just that you see things differently when you adopt a certain belief, not that they actually change in accordance with your belief?... (shrugs shoulders) __________________ <br />Look! Everyone\'s admiring me! <img border=\"0\" title=\"\" alt=\"[Big Grin]\" src=\"biggrin.gif\" />

02-25-2002, 06:44 PM	#23
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 38 Posts: 8,802	quote: Originally posted by K T Ong: I seem to have heard of that somewhere before, too. Only trouble is, if two different (groups of) people entertain very different, perhaps even opposed views or beliefs regarding 'reality' (such as when I believe in God and you don't), then how shall reality change itself to suit the beliefs of both parties? [img]smile.gif[/img] Or maybe it's just that you see things differently when you adopt a certain belief, not that they actually change in accordance with your belief?... (shrugs shoulders) Eh..... At 0:30 am it sounds believable... I'll see what I think about it tomorrow [img]tongue.gif[/img]

02-25-2002, 07:15 PM	#24
Azred Drow Priestess Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex Age: 54 Posts: 4,037	quote: Originally posted by Neb: I think that I once heard evidence that "belief" or "faith" could change things, physical evidence actually, working in the way that things changed to what it was believed that they were(Or was it to the opposite?), so if this is true, and people stopped believing in God(In any for or with any name) as much as they used to, would he/she/it then not die? In quantum physics, how you make an observation can change what is observed, when you make an observation can change what is observed, and--most importantly--it appears that sometimes why you make an observation changes what is observed. Combine this with the fact that at the quantum level every possible event happens--even ones that should be impossible--and then realize that this is the foundation of the universe and, pretty soon, you will find yourself posting messages on boards about how what you believe influences what you see. Anyway, my point is that what you believe has much to do with what you see. God is as much a concept as anything else; hence, God cannot die. Whether you believe in God or not is up to you. People do have a built-in desire to believe in something "bigger" than themselves, though, even if that something is the belief that "there is no such thing as God". Go figure. __________________ Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true. No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

02-26-2002, 12:50 AM	#25
Absynthe Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Azred: In quantum physics, how you make an observation can change what is observed, when you make an observation can change what is observed, and--most importantly--it appears that sometimes why you make an observation changes what is observed. Combine this with the fact that at the quantum level every possible event happens--even ones that should be impossible--and then realize that this is the foundation of the universe and, pretty soon, you will find yourself posting messages on boards about how what you believe influences what you see. Anyway, my point is that what you believe has much to do with what you see. God is as much a concept as anything else; hence, God cannot die. Whether you believe in God or not is up to you. People do have a built-in desire to believe in something "bigger" than themselves, though, even if that something is the belief that "there is no such thing as God". Go figure. Wheeeee! Another science geek! How about this: First, you remove spin-paired electrons from each other to a distance at which the speed of light would create a measurable effect, then change the spin on one of the electrons, and presto, the other changes to match. Instantaneously. No measurable lag whatsoever. I would posit that this observable and reproducible event is the kernel about which sympathetic magic, (voodoo in particular) is built. The concept that you can effect change in a remote system by influencing an immediate piece of that system is at least somewhat validated by this experiment.

02-26-2002, 02:59 AM	#26
AzureWolf 20th Level Warrior Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: . Age: 40 Posts: 2,762	quote: Originally posted by Evil Al: I've heard some people say that it is cause we are so afraid of dying that we invent something that takes the edge off the fear, does anyone agree with that? I tend not to I believe that very much, Neb's absolute denial is a prime example of it. He is scared to admit there cannot be nothing after you die so he HAS to believe there is something else. So it takes away his fear of death to an extent.

02-26-2002, 03:03 AM	#27
AzureWolf 20th Level Warrior Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: . Age: 40 Posts: 2,762	quote: Originally posted by Neb: I really don't understand how people can believe this without being horribly depressed by it.... Imagine.... Just forever without feeling anything ever again.... Without even thinking..... I believe that and its not in the least depressing [img]smile.gif[/img] Just pushes us to make the most of the time we have left on earth while we live. And as for not having to care about anything that you do in life since we dont believe in an afterlife/reincarnation is so untrue its laughable. The consequences of our actions affect us in this life.

02-26-2002, 10:52 AM	#28
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 38 Posts: 8,802	quote: Originally posted by AzureWolf: I believe that and its not in the least depressing [img]smile.gif[/img] Just pushes us to make the most of the time we have left on earth while we live. And as for not having to care about anything that you do in life since we don't believe in an afterlife/reincarnation is so untrue its laughable. The consequences of our actions affect us in this life. You know, I have the perfect argument against you, but I just can't word it, and even if I could I probably shouldn't, last time we discussed this I seem to remember the discussion getting rather unfriendly....

02-26-2002, 11:13 AM	#29
Azred Drow Priestess Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex Age: 54 Posts: 4,037	quote: Originally posted by Absynthe: Wheeeee! Another science geek! How about this: First, you remove spin-paired electrons from each other to a distance at which the speed of light would create a measurable effect, then change the spin on one of the electrons, and presto, the other changes to match. Instantaneously. No measurable lag whatsoever. I would posit that this observable and reproducible event is the kernel about which sympathetic magic, (voodoo in particular) is built. The concept that you can effect change in a remote system by influencing an immediate piece of that system is at least somewhat validated by this experiment. Ah, yes. The Bell effect. The only piece of information you need to realize that there are mysteries in the universe we cannot explain and that we haven't even yet uncovered. __________________ Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true. No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

02-26-2002, 07:15 PM	#30
K T Ong Symbol of Cyric Join Date: January 27, 2002 Location: Plateau of Singapore Age: 60 Posts: 1,230	quote: How about this: First, you remove spin-paired electrons from each other to a distance at which the speed of light would create a measurable effect, then change the spin on one of the electrons, and presto, the other changes to match. Instantaneously. No measurable lag whatsoever. Some scientists like Erwin Schrodinger, David Bohm and Fritjof Capra see in examples like this an indication of a Universe in which all things exist in a state of fundamental unity. All things are one. Thus my being is really one with that of the Cosmos, and there can be in fact no death to speak of -- nor any birth, for that matter -- since my true being is in fact co-existent with that of the Cosmos. This insight is in fact shared by many if not most of the world's mystical traditions. [img]smile.gif[/img] quote: I believe that and its not in the least depressing Just pushes us to make the most of the time we have left on earth while we live. One is very much apt to wonder if folks like AzureWolf have really come to sit down and ponder carefully the prospect of their own death. In any case, it would seem to me as dogmatic to believe that we cease to exist at death as to believe we have an eternal soul. We need to present the evidence to support whichever belief we happen to profess. quote: And as for not having to care about anything that you do in life since we dont believe in an afterlife/reincarnation is so untrue its laughable. Why is it untrue? [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: K T Ong ] __________________ <br />Look! Everyone\'s admiring me! <img border=\"0\" title=\"\" alt=\"[Big Grin]\" src=\"biggrin.gif\" />

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