UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: That's actually a very plausible theory, Seraph. Except that the U.S. never claimed they knew exactly where the WMD's were. We did know there were some suspicious sites that U.N. Inspectors had been denied access to - so that seemed like a logical place to start. And the article posted by Grojlach supports the theory that there were sites known to contain WMD's that were dismantled by Saddam Hussein and the parts shipped out of the country. So it isn't surprising that nothing was found by the U.S. once it reached Baghdad and had access to those sites.

I seem to recall this about WoMD:

On March 30, 11 days into the war, Rumsfeld said in an ABC News interview when asked about WMDs: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

In comments Sept. 10 before the National Press Club, Rumsfeld conceded that he may have overreached. "I said, 'We know they're in that area," Rumsfeld said. "I should have said, 'I believe we're in that area. Our intelligence tells us they're in that area,' and that was our best judgment."

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

Mark

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: John D. that "programing language" post gets my unequivocal nomination for the longest run-on buncha junk from which I can discern no meaning whatsoever that I have ever, ever, seen online (written in a form of English, anyway).

I aim to please I color coded it so follow the color of the reply options.

[ 06-15-2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Skunk: Actually, the original article states: "He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. Which *PROVES* that the weapons programme was being ***DISMANTLED*** as QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

Ole animal of smell, Why oh why was not this evidence brought up in the fall of 2002 at the UN or in early 2003 in the UN? You know when the UN gave Sodamn Insane the deadline to prove he no longer had any banded Items. Please so me the articals that showed he was ***DISMANTLING*** as QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. You know good and well that if there were any proof of this, the press outlets you read would be full of the stories, SO MANY STORIES it would make the press coverage of the prison scandel look like high school journalism. Now if you can show me the articals proving these facts I'll admitt Sodamn Insane was honestly dismantling his illegal programs before the invasion of Iraq. That fact mean nothing to me because as I have stated before I believe we should have gone into Iraq just because Sodamn Insane needed his rear-end kicked. I need nothing else to support my position.

[ 06-15-2004, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by John D Harris: quote: Originally posted by Skunk: Actually, the original article states: "He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. Which *PROVES* that the weapons programme was being ***DISMANTLED*** as QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

Ole animal of smell, Why oh why was not this evidence brought up in the fall of 2002 at the UN or in early 2003 in the UN? You now when the UN give Sodamn Insane the deadline to prove he no longer had any banded Items. Please so me the articals that showed he was ***DISMANTLING*** as QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. You know good and well that if there were any proof of this, the press outlets you read would be full of the stories, SO MANY STORIES it would make the press coverage of the prison scandel look like high school journalism. Now if you can show me the articals proving these facts I'll admitt Sodamn Insane was honestly dismantling his illegal programs before the invasion of Iraq. That fact mean nothing to me because as I have stated before I believe we should have gone into Iraq just because Sodamn Insane needed his rear-end kicked. I need nothing else to support my position. [/QUOTE]Good points as always, Mr. "Hale".

Actually, I should have caught this little nugget in my earlier response...

Actually, the original article states:
"He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey.

Yes, some of the facilities were dismantled (which may also explain why there was nothing to be found around Baghdad or Tikrit as Rumsfield had originally suggested), but the components of the various weapons were still very much functional when found by the U.N. Inspectors - and their primary concern was that these components could still be used to manufacture WMD's. In fact, the opening statement of that same article says exactly that....

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - U.N. weapons experts have found 20 engines used in banned Iraqi missiles in a Jordan scrapyard along with other equipment which could be used to make weapons of mass destruction, an official said Wednesday.

That is the opening statement of the article provided by the A.P. and posted by Grojlach. It seems to indicate that the U.N. Inspectors consider the possibility of these components being re-manufactured into WMD's to be very real and serious.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: You know, Grojlach, it absolutely amazes me that you and other members can criticize pro-war members as "conspiracy theorists" (implying they will believe whatever they want, no matter how far they have to stretch the facts) - yet when presented with an article like this can unequivocally state that it doesn't prove anything.

*sigh*
That's why I never really bother with Current Events anymore...
Seriously, if you can't even see the difference between the original WorldTribune article and the one I posted from the Associated Press, then we've got nothing left to discuss.

[ 06-16-2004, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Grojlach: *sigh* That's why I never really bother with Current Events anymore... Seriously, if you can't even see the difference between the original WorldTribune article and the one I posted from the Associated Press, then we've got nothing left to discuss.

What I saw were a LOT of the same FACTS quoted in BOTH articles. Facts like 20 engines for WMD's being found in a scrapyard (in Jordan, I believe). Facts like the U.N. Inspectors were concerned that the components they found could still be used to manufacture WMD's. Facts like the U.N. Inspectors had no idea these items that they were supposedly monitoring had been shipped out of Iraq without their knowledge. Facts like the U.N. Inspectors being worried about how many more components and materials may have been shipped out of Iraq that they haven't found yet.

Every single one of these FACTS was taken from YOUR article - not the article of the World Tribune. The differences between the two articles is irrelevant because I ignored the "spin" from the World Tribune and just focused on the facts contained in both articles.

And I do agree that if you can't see these facts for yourself, then there really is nothing left for us to discuss.

[John D Harris]

Argueing about the interpitation of the facts is fun, BUT before that can be done the facts must be agreed on. There in lies the problem most don't want to settle on the facts cause it leaves their position weak so they argue about the feelings they have of the facts. That works for BOTH sides.

[PoleCat]

I'm going to add some more fuel to this fire that both sides can point to and use as ammunition:

Quote from Grojlach's article:
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"Perricos suggested that the interim Iraqi government, which will assume sovereignty when the U.S. and British occupation of the country ends on June 30, may want to reconsider "the whole policy for the continued export of metal scrap" which apparently started in mid-2003 and is regulated by the U.S.-led coalition.

"The only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," he said, according to the text of his briefing.

"These visits provide just a snapshot of the whole picture since the scrap metal has a short residence time and is re-exported to various countries," Perricos told the council."
-------------------------------

Now by reading this part of the article it seems to me that the US coalition had to be aware of the export of these components as the article suggests that this was a US program that started in mid 2003 after the invasion. The Al-Samoud 2 missle systems were deemed a violation of the UN resolutions prohibiting Irag from developing weapons systems that could be used beyond the operational range of 150 miles. In late January - early February of '03 the Iraq government was ordered to hand these missles over to UN inspectors for destruction. This was in the process of being completed when the US invaded in mid March.

Here is my source for this info:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/samoud.htm

Here is a quote:
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"In February 2003, U.N. inspectors evaluated two versions of the Al Samoud 2 missile using four separate computer models. Both versions were found to exceed the range limit of 150 kilometers set by the U.N. Security Council. The lighter version of the Al Samoud 2 was estimated to have a range of 193 kilometers, while the heavier version would be capable of a 162 km range. Accordingly, it was requested that all Al Samoud 2 missiles and warheads be delivered to the inspectors for destruction."
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The GlobalSecurity article has all kinds of interesting info on Iraqs missle systems such as secret missle development and conversions of existing missle systems from other countries. It also seems to indicate that some weapons development by the Iraq government was within the UN guidelines with the major exception of WMD.

This is all just food for thought - use it how you like. [img]smile.gif[/img]