Are Girls better than Boys?

[Firestormalpha]

Originally posted by Thoran: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics : Statistically speaking, men have a wider bell curve when it comes to intelligence... the top 10% and bottom 10% of the intellectual range are almost exclusively male. Women tend to cluster near the middle.

Thoran, which gender do you think wrote those tests? Male or female. And yes it would make a difference.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Firestormalpha: quote: Originally posted by Thoran: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics : Statistically speaking, men have a wider bell curve when it comes to intelligence... the top 10% and bottom 10% of the intellectual range are almost exclusively male. Women tend to cluster near the middle.

Thoran, which gender do you think wrote those tests? Male or female. And yes it would make a difference. [/QUOTE]Actually in this case it wouldn't... if you had a simple skew in the results I'd agree that a testing bias could be the cause, but in this case you see one gender dominating BOTH ends of the scale, with the medians for both genders very close. While a straight testing bias is very easy to construct, constructing a test to achieve this result would be difficult if not impossible. Additionally these results are can be empirically corroberated, by looking at real life occurances of genius and mental retardation, because both of these clubs are dominated by men.

[ 09-23-2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[harleyquinn]

I'm curious as to where you've come up with women have not contributed much to science. Below is just a small list from geology, to radioactivity, to inventions:

Mary Anning -- found the first complete icthyosaurus skeleton in 1811 as well as a plesisaur and a pterodactyl in 1828

Marie Curie -- is famous for her work on radioactivity. In fact, she and her husband, Pierre, first coined that word. She won the Nobel prize twice, first in 1903 (jointly with her husband, and with Henri Becquerel) for the discovery of radium and polonium, and again (by herself) in 1911 for the isolation of pure radium

Ellen Eguli (late 19C)-- invented the clothes wringer for washing machines

Rosalind Elsie Franklin (1920-1957) -- she was the first to recognize the helix shape of DNA

Mary Hebraea (1st C) -- discovered the formula for hydrochloric acid

Hikldegard (1099-1179) -- her ideas on universal gravitation are correct and pre-date Newton's by several centuries

Grace Hopper (1906-1992) -- The "mother" of the modern computer. Invented the modern subroutine. She invented the language APT. She verified the language COBOL

Lady Augusta Ada Byron Lovelace (1815-1851) -- She is considered the first computer programmer. Wrote the "code" to program Babbage's first computer.

Sarah Mather (19C) -- 1845 she received the patent for the submarine telescope and lamp

Maud Menten (20C) -- She was an early 20th century biologist working in Toronto, Canada in enzyme kinetics. The method she developed is called Michealis-Menten Kinetics and is the standard technique used today.

Emily Noether (1882-1935) -- developed the basis for group theory. Group theory is the mathematics behind the representation of all modern physics

Nettie Stevens (1861-1912) -- the biologist who determined that the X and Y chromosomes determine gender

Rosalyn Sussman Yalow (1921 -) -- won half of the Nobel prize in medicine in 1977 "for the devlopement of radioimmunoassays of peptide hormones".


As I said, these are just a few, there are many more inventions and advances in science from women. Just go to your library or the web to read up on more.

[Night Stalker]

*Night stalks aimlessly by .... stops .... blinks .... notices that he is in a minefield!*

You really stepped into it with this topic! There happen to be some very intelligent women on this board who also happen to be quite boootiful! Harley, Mel, and Willow have all made really good points about the accomplishments women have made, yet how even today - despite a radical socialization shift - there is still negative attitudes toward women "mens" jobs. Just 25 yrs ago that famous female tennis player that beat the world champion in '76 was both praised for her achievement and riddiculed as being a bulldyke. Well, that was twenty five years ago? How many males sports stars can you name? Now, can you name even two female sports figures?

Thoran also makes a good point that it is Western Society that socializes (not forces) men and women into certain rolls, and both sides are (generally speaking) reluctant to give up their power bases.

What am I saying, heck I don't even know anymore at this point. BUT!! If it comes to siding with you Avatar or the ladies ..... well ....... I'm just gonna have to side with the ladies on this one!

[Gangrell]

I have to agree with Calaethis on this, what really is the point of this thread? Women have been bashing guys on IW the last few days, you really need this to add to it? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But yea, I won't lie, women are smarter than guys, just a known fact. Weither it would be in the field of science, mathematics, whatever they have done some great things as harley quinn has mentioned. For the majority of it, as to why women back in the day were restricted academicly was probably for how they were portrayed, being weak physically so they had to be weak at mind, I think or from what I've read anyway.

Hmm, now as to why women "should be" stay at home mothers... this is dangerous ground that I tread but I'll take a shot. I think that, well, it's hard to say. Women just have that gentle touch when it comes to parenting like my mom had, my dad was usually about horse play, helping me learn how to ride my bike, play baseball and such which is still always good

Now I'll kindly step out before I get whacked [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Sir Kenyth]

This is tough to answer as it's impossible to tell which trends are based on natural aptitude and which are based on social pressures. I remember reading a few pertinent things. It seems women prefer to learn things in a wide number of subjects whereas men tend to be focused on one thing at the expense of others. We like to specialize more than women. Women tend to be more adept at conversation, vocabulary, spelling, empathy and intuition on human behavior. They also tend to be better at math calculation. Men tend to be better at spatial perception and things associated with it. Mechanical and technological aptitude seem to come more natural for men. Abstract mathmatical reasoning also seems to come more easily to men. Engineers are almost exclusively male.

Here's my opinion. What does all this mean? Nothing! Girls and boys are brought up very differently and exposed to different areas as they grow and learn. This accounts for most of the different likes, dislikes and areas of expertise. Social pressure is a powerful force on the developing child. As society changes, so will these differences as children are raised differently.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by harleyquinn: I'm curious as to where you've come up with women have not contributed much to science. Below is just a small list from geology, to radioactivity, to inventions: Mary Anning -- found the first complete icthyosaurus skeleton in 1811 as well as a plesisaur and a pterodactyl in 1828 Marie Curie -- is famous for her work on radioactivity. In fact, she and her husband, Pierre, first coined that word. She won the Nobel prize twice, first in 1903 (jointly with her husband, and with Henri Becquerel) for the discovery of radium and polonium, and again (by herself) in 1911 for the isolation of pure radium Ellen Eguli (late 19C)-- invented the clothes wringer for washing machines Rosalind Elsie Franklin (1920-1957) -- she was the first to recognize the helix shape of DNA Mary Hebraea (1st C) -- discovered the formula for hydrochloric acid Hikldegard (1099-1179) -- her ideas on universal gravitation are correct and pre-date Newton's by several centuries Grace Hopper (1906-1992) -- The "mother" of the modern computer. Invented the modern subroutine. She invented the language APT. She verified the language COBOL Lady Augusta Ada Byron Lovelace (1815-1851) -- She is considered the first computer programmer. Wrote the "code" to program Babbage's first computer. Sarah Mather (19C) -- 1845 she received the patent for the submarine telescope and lamp Maud Menten (20C) -- She was an early 20th century biologist working in Toronto, Canada in enzyme kinetics. The method she developed is called Michealis-Menten Kinetics and is the standard technique used today. Emily Noether (1882-1935) -- developed the basis for group theory. Group theory is the mathematics behind the representation of all modern physics Nettie Stevens (1861-1912) -- the biologist who determined that the X and Y chromosomes determine gender Rosalyn Sussman Yalow (1921 -) -- won half of the Nobel prize in medicine in 1977 "for the devlopement of radioimmunoassays of peptide hormones". As I said, these are just a few, there are many more inventions and advances in science from women. Just go to your library or the web to read up on more.

I would add that many of these women needed to fight against an entrenched anti-female bureaucracy... like Emily Noether who was denied a professorship until 1917 and had to get written permission to be allowed in class at university... simply because she was a female. These are some tough people, and there's no way to know how many more there would have been if the barriers had not been so high. While these days I find myself fighting against the anti-male stereotypes and biases that permeate society, I'll never forget that it wasn't long ago when women were fighting the same battles (and in isolated instances still are).

[Sir Kenyth]

Originally posted by Thoran: Many factors here, here's some of the information I've dug up in researching the subject: Women Develop Faster : Some recent research seems to indicate that women intellectually develop a lot faster (which results in better grades in primary and secondary education), and men catch up later in life. By the prime wage earning years the report claims men have IQ ratings on average 6 points higher. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics : Statistically speaking, men have a wider bell curve when it comes to intelligence... the top 10% and bottom 10% of the intellectual range are almost exclusively male. Women tend to cluster near the middle. Choice : Many of our brightest women make the choice to become mothers and stay home with children. While the option is more and more open to men, there is still a "Lace Curtain" that surrounds the areas of traditional female power... and it's far more solid than the "glass ceiling" is these days. This will result in a reduction in the number of women that are in a position to make the big contribution. Choice : From infancy, girls focus on human interaction, and boys focus on mechanical constructs. This has been proven in quite a few studies (although the rad-fems don't want anyone to know it). Boys and girls are hard-wired to have different interests, right from infancy where girls are far more interested in faces than boys. Generally, boys will be drawn to math and sciences, girls to the arts and humanities. School structure : In the last 30 years schools have been revamped in order to improve the performance of girls, and the process has been a stunning success. Now it's time to do the same for our boys, who are experienceing huge problems in schools all over the western world. I believe that many of the changes made to help girls have inadvertantly hurt boys, in addition the "defanging" of teachers has made it virtually impossible for them to enforce discipline... something that boys absolutely need in order to perform. Finally, we need more male teachers!

Good post! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

Oh yea... this thread, no matter how inflammatorily (is that even a word, or did I just invent it? ) started, brings me around to a question I've been pondering for quite a while now (besides pondering how I'm going to get the chicken to wear the nylons, or whether there really IS life on Gandymede).

It's true that girls mature faster than boys, they also respond positively to different teaching methods than boys do and perform at their peak in a more cooperative environment than boys tend to prefer.

Should boys and girls be educated seperately? Perhaps an educational system tuned to girls would be highly cooperative, less confrontational and competitive, and conclude a year earlier than the guys. Perhaps an educational system tuned to boys would be highly tactile/experiential, more competitive, more regimented, and take an extra year to accomidate the slower development of boys. Seems like an ideal solution... except for the fact that every special interest group would be screaming bias and throwing law suits around like confetti every time something happened that they didn't like.

[ 09-23-2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Thoran: Women Develop Faster : Some recent research seems to indicate that women intellectually develop a lot faster (which results in better grades in primary and secondary education), and men catch up later in life. By the prime wage earning years the report claims men have IQ ratings on average 6 points higher.

Yes, I was going to mention this myself. Girls brains actually develop faster than guys so during school, if girls aren't performing better than boys on average then it means boys are being advantaged, or girls disadvatanged in some way. The research really implies that the recent kerfuffle about girls doing better now than boys at school so feminism has 'gone too far' and boys need help is not really accurate because this is where biologically, they should be. However boys catch up so adults' cognitive capacity is equal across genders.

Great posts by Mel, Willow and Harley! And some others . I would also add that so-called 'breakthroughs' take time to come by - time that women have simply not had in the academic world. It is only in the last few decades that women have really been able to embrace careers that were primarily men's domains, which includes to a large extent science and other academic areas - really the last two generations. Before that they were at a significant disadvantage. I would also question what exactly you're classing a 'breakthrough'. Research teams that you see on the news with their latest cancer/solar power/aids vaccine/etc discoverary usually contain both males and females so they don't count. I also read a lot of scientific papers for uni and, while I haven't taken a terrible lot of notice of the gender breakdown, there is still a significant number of women contributing to my field. I also think that about half of the academics in my department are women.

Someone also mentioned that boys are traditionally 'better' at science and girls better at english. I would question whether that is biological or social. The only real difference between the cognitive abilities of boys and girls is that boys are on average a little better visuo-spatially, and girls a little better verbally. However that really has nothing to do with science. I would argue that it is more that science is seen as a 'boys' field and english and the humanities as a suitably 'girls' field. Of course that is changing now but traditionally, I think that's been the case.

As for your jaw-dropping post about women primping too much to get to the lab - wow. I think Mel summed up my feelings about that sufficiently . I also love the way you've used one example, your mother, and from that based opinions on one entire gender. I can see at least one guy who won't be making any scientific breakthroughs