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Old 12-04-2001, 10:50 AM   #31
Silver Cheetah
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
quote:
Originally posted by Donut:

I picked it up in another forum Barry. I work in Essex Road, just down the road from the Angel. I was brought up in Highbury and moved to Enfield five years ago. Too many changes in Islington, the whole place has become gentrified. Half of Islington are poor people pretending to be rich anfd the other half are rich people pretending to be poor. I don't expect you remember the days when we were known as 'The Peoples Republic of Islington' and the red flag flew over the town hall.



Highbury! I know it well... For many years, I lived just up the other end of the Holloway Road........
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:35 AM   #32
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

However, it's relatively easy for people to stop buying into all that shit, if they want to. Just takes a big shift in attitude, and a bit of awareness. (Well, not quite that easy but you get my gist).



I think we're so used to disagreeing we don't know how to agree.

All good points, but I don't know about the above paragraph. If it were so easy to "stop buying into it" why don't more do so? Look at how many people are addicted to cigarettes, prostitutes and gambling for starters. Changing ones attitude, and getting that awareness can be difficult. Especially when surrounded with the lies of advertising. You can't escape it. Bilboards, TV, movies, radio, sponsors at gigs, sporting events, blimps on sunny days, aiplanes, street leaflet distributors, emails, junk mail, buses, trains and taxis, bus stops.

All telling you you NEED this or that for safety, security, happiness, and relaxation, to be trendy, to communicate or to save time.

I think the problems in the west are massive. Massive.
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Old 12-04-2001, 03:11 PM   #33
Merkin
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Join Date: August 29, 2001
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 186
I agree, Yorik.

{soapbox}
It's kind of like the old story about boiling a frog. If you toss a frog into boiling water, it will scream and jump out. I f you put him in a pot of cold water, and then turn on the heat so it heats up gradually, he will stay in the water until he dies, not even realizing that he's cooking to death. Well, the water is getting hot. The west in general is blessed with a huge surfiet of material wealth, but no vision, no focus, no will. We have, as a culture, profoundly lost our way, IMO. We used to have a commonly held dream of helping to bring freedom and prosperity to the rest of the world. But we no longer even know what freedom is, and don't value it anymore (although it still gets plenty of lip service) and prosperity has come to mean an elite class living in obscene wealth, a huge middle class living comfortably but terrified of losing what they have, and both upper and middle classes telling the rest of the world they can go to hell. The spiritual revival movement has largely been usurped by the Christian right-wing, who placate peoples fears by giving them illusionary security, easy answers, and a rationale for not engaging the real world.

We need a new vision, a new Camelot, a new Grail. I don't know where it will come from, but I profoundly believe that unless we discover a way to renew passion, commitment to a larger vision, and a spritual connection with the earth, that we will continue the slide into meaningless mediocrity, and the comfort-enclosed numbness o dying a little more every day.

{/soapbox}
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Old 12-04-2001, 03:43 PM   #34
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


I think we're so used to disagreeing we don't know how to agree.

All good points, but I don't know about the above paragraph. If it were so easy to "stop buying into it" why don't more do so? Look at how many people are addicted to cigarettes, prostitutes and gambling for starters. Changing ones attitude, and getting that awareness can be difficult. Especially when surrounded with the lies of advertising. You can't escape it. Bilboards, TV, movies, radio, sponsors at gigs, sporting events, blimps on sunny days, aiplanes, street leaflet distributors, emails, junk mail, buses, trains and taxis, bus stops.

All telling you you NEED this or that for safety, security, happiness, and relaxation, to be trendy, to communicate or to save time.

I think the problems in the west are massive. Massive.



I agree wholeheartedly!

Just a comment about advertising:
I was very fortunate in my father. He would NEVER buy stuff with advertising on it if he could avoid it. His attitude was 'if they want me to advertise their stuff, they can PAY me! I'M not paying THEM!' He even turned store carrier bags inside-out so as not to advertise the store. I'm the same. I NEVER buy clothes (and avoid anything else) with a logo advertising a firm on it. Why the hell should I pay through the nose to wear something designed to advertise a particular manufacturer? Its crazy! Quality shows itself in the materials and construction, NOT in a name blazoned all over it. A lot of 'named', so-called prestigious products are not at all worth the price-tag.
Genuine quality doesn't need 'in your face' advertising.
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Old 12-04-2001, 03:57 PM   #35
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


I think we're so used to disagreeing we don't know how to agree.

All good points, but I don't know about the above paragraph. If it were so easy to "stop buying into it" why don't more do so? Look at how many people are addicted to cigarettes, prostitutes and gambling for starters. Changing ones attitude, and getting that awareness can be difficult. Especially when surrounded with the lies of advertising. You can't escape it. Bilboards, TV, movies, radio, sponsors at gigs, sporting events, blimps on sunny days, aiplanes, street leaflet distributors, emails, junk mail, buses, trains and taxis, bus stops.

All telling you you NEED this or that for safety, security, happiness, and relaxation, to be trendy, to communicate or to save time.

I think the problems in the west are massive. Massive.



Yes, they are massive. And I think I did gloss over the ease of escape rather.

I escaped. It took a few years, but I did. If I can do it, then others can. Well, they have. I know some of them.

I think the first thing is to be conscious of the trap (as you so obviously are). Being aware that you're being taken for what is potentially a life-long ride is a good beginning.

A major problem is that self esteem in the West is so bound up with what you have, and what you can afford to have. We live in a competitive society where from very young most of us learn that we are loved not for who we are, warts and all, but for what we accomplish, what we look like, what we own.

Kids learn the attitudes really early that teach them to laugh at the ones whose parents can't afford the trainers, the right clothes, the cool accessories. They don't realise that these things are just 'uniforms' and the whole idea of being 'trendy' or 'cool' when it comes to clothes was hijacked long ago by corporations who have no qualms at all when it comes to targeting kids. The youth demographic is the biggest and most lucrative market on the planet. Kids are big bucks, all right. Never mind if their parents can't afford the gear.

Until the west realises that happiness and feeling good come first and foremost from accepting who you are, and glorying in that, people will continued to be suckered by the ads, that promise so much. They can never deliver, because fulfillment of the promise is ephemeral and illusiory. Once you have one thing, you are not satisfied, but straight away move on to wanting the next thing on the list. Our society demands that we strive eternally to be 'better', to have more, to live the dream. What is the dream, anyway? To have everything you could ever want? Actually, there's no need.

Happiness comes from within, and nothing outside of you can ever make it stay. When you are dependent on anything for your happiness, then it is constantly threatened, and will always remain outside your grasp, except for those rare moments when you actually possess the things which with you associate happiness.

Happiness comes from being truly yourself. From doing the things you love in your life (I think you know this. You live this way, do you not?) Happiness comes from living *your* life, not the life that someone else has told you you should be living. Happiness comes from authenticity, from honesty. Unfortunately, many people are so tied up in trying to be what society tells them they should be (often including friends and relatives) that they don't have a clue who they truly are and what they truly want. It's hard for joy and creativity to blossom when your whole live is about fear, and pretending - essential components, we are taught, of a viable survival strategy.

It's all very well for me to talk about accepting who you are and glorying in that, about being your true self, about doing what you love. Our society seems constructed almost purposely to stop that happening, to keep us afraid. Humans who are truly free aren't likely to put up with the current status quo for too long, are they?

Interestingly, since the 60s or thereabouts, there has been a huge rise, - in fact an incredible rise - in people protesting about this, that and the other. As people learn more about who they really are, as opposed to who society wants them to be, the square pegs are carving chunks out of the round holes that have traditionally contained them, and are holding them up to public scrutiny. The round holes are starting to look more and more vulnerable, from where I'm sitting. And that includes the advertisers, the ubiquitous corporations who would have us believe that their only goal is to better our lives and make us happy.

I believe we are on the edge of a massive change in global human conciousness, and the anti-globlisation, new age, environmental movements are just part of that. My hope is that we are starting to see the beginning of the end as regards the old competitive, we are all separate, every man for himself, I'm all right Jack, there's not enough to go round so I'll grab it mentality.

I see the fast growth of a new kind of thinking (its been around since the sixties, in this particular incarnation of itself, but growth has been pretty slow til quite recently...). It's a way of thinking that embraces community and connection, and it is being spread by the Internet more than by anything else.

There are many elements resistant to this new thinking, (which is also very old in spite of its seeming newness - well, it forms the heart of Jesus' teaching, doesn't it? and goes back to way back before then).

It may be that the human race has to live through catastrophe in order to get to a point where it decides to embrace this new way of being in any kind of concerted fashion, for embrace it we will have to, if we are to survive. (Or so I believe...)

I seem to have made a few leaps to get from advertising to the dawn of a brave new world......... [img]smile.gif[/img] Call me a starry eyed idealist if you like... [img]smile.gif[/img] But I live in a town where a lot of people are living life this way, and so for me it is relatively easy to believe in. I've also spent time at Findhorn, in Scotland, which is a community of 300, living in harmony with nature and each other (that isn't quite as idyllic as it sounds, by the way.... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] ) So, it can be done... It's not always easy, and it takes awareness and focus, as well as a huge commitment to your authentic self, but it can.
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Old 12-04-2001, 04:00 PM   #36
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


That's a fair call. I wasn't using the doco as gospel though, but rather as a way of bringing up a point. A way of looking at situations differently. You're quite right about bias, except that African spokesmen for example complain that ONLY the negatives are shown in Western Media, and this hampers investments for starters.

Famine hits, headlines hit. Famine goes, no-one knows.

How many are aware of Mali's developments in growing food from salt ocean water for example. Fighting back the desert and reclaiming the sahara, making more food for it's people?

Has anyone heard how Congo(Zaire) is doing after they got rid of their dictator?

Good news from the third world is hard to find, so when docos against the grain like this come out I think it's a healthy rebalance, and due to it's unsensationalist agenda, can be taken somewhat truthfully.

("Easy life" Surfers were interviewed in the west too BTW)

(Oh, and Genital mutilation. is limited to some Muslim areas in Africa. There are plenty of non-muslims in Africa, Asia and Catholic South America.)

My issue is not that there are not hardships in the third world. Of course there are! Hardships that should not have to exist. There's more than enough food to go around. The rich - nations and individuals - need to be prepared to share, or risk playing on an even field. It's not in say Britain's interests for the third world to be wealthy, because the island can't feed itself.

My issue is making the mistake of thinking we are happier as a result of the so called creature comforts and easy ride. The statistics speak for themselves. High youth suicide, rampant drug use, the aforementioned eating disorders, family breakdowns, stress disorders. The mental health of the west, despite the riches and seeming lack of hardship is falling apart.



Great post, great points.

Merkin: as was yours!

Sorry, I know we aren't supposed to do this, but I just wrote one great long post, so I thought I'd keep this short... whilst showing appreciation and solidarity...

Cheetah shuts up and steps down.... [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 12-04-2001, 09:16 PM   #37
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:


I agree wholeheartedly!

Just a comment about advertising:
I was very fortunate in my father. He would NEVER buy stuff with advertising on it if he could avoid it. His attitude was 'if they want me to advertise their stuff, they can PAY me! I'M not paying THEM!' He even turned store carrier bags inside-out so as not to advertise the store. I'm the same. I NEVER buy clothes (and avoid anything else) with a logo advertising a firm on it. Why the hell should I pay through the nose to wear something designed to advertise a particular manufacturer? Its crazy! Quality shows itself in the materials and construction, NOT in a name blazoned all over it. A lot of 'named', so-called prestigious products are not at all worth the price-tag.
Genuine quality doesn't need 'in your face' advertising.



My problem isn't with advertising per se. I sing ads, and a merchant promoting his wares is as old as society.

It's the content of those ads. I see nothing wrong with someone making a "thingy", then going around telling people about how good his "thingy" is.

It's when he starts using manipulation - preying on peoples fears or dreams, telling them their life can't be lived without it - that it starts getting sinister.

Like large lotteries. The odds of winning the so desired financial freedom, are ridiculously against. Yet the message beams out: "It could be you" "Spend the rest of your life."

Spend it doing what?

A prominent mega successful Australian band had it in their marketing plan to lie about the lead singers marital status.

Why? So prepubescant girls would go along to record signings hoping they would "be the one".

Manipulation. Not simply presenting a product, but using the hopes and dreams of young girls to make money. If he WAS single, and situations developed like that, I don't believe there'd be a problem. Who can blame someone for being liked? It's the intent. The falsehood, the planning around manipulation that stinks.

The irony about the show I watched, on SBS (multicultural "arty" chanel) was that straight after was an ad with Julian McMahon in it, for some new technology, with the tag:

"What you really need"

Coming after the show, which looked at that very sentance, it made the ad into an anti-ad. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] Life had been lived for millenia without this new technology. One could hardly call it a need.

-
Cheetah, great long post too BTW. True enough about the "new" ideas and the J man link. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 12-04-2001, 09:21 PM   #38
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Call me a starry eyed idealist if you like...



You starry eyed idealist you.
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Old 12-05-2001, 08:57 AM   #39
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


My problem isn't with advertising per se. I sing ads, and a merchant promoting his wares is as old as society.

It's the content of those ads. I see nothing wrong with someone making a "thingy", then going around telling people about how good his "thingy" is.

It's when he starts using manipulation - preying on peoples fears or dreams, telling them their life can't be lived without it - that it starts getting sinister.

Like large lotteries. The odds of winning the so desired financial freedom, are ridiculously against. Yet the message beams out: "It could be you" "Spend the rest of your life."

Spend it doing what?

A prominent mega successful Australian band had it in their marketing plan to lie about the lead singers marital status.

Why? So prepubescant girls would go along to record signings hoping they would "be the one".

Manipulation. Not simply presenting a product, but using the hopes and dreams of young girls to make money. If he WAS single, and situations developed like that, I don't believe there'd be a problem. Who can blame someone for being liked? It's the intent. The falsehood, the planning around manipulation that stinks.

The irony about the show I watched, on SBS (multicultural "arty" chanel) was that straight after was an ad with Julian McMahon in it, for some new technology, with the tag:

"What you really need"

Coming after the show, which looked at that very sentance, it made the ad into an anti-ad. [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] Life had been lived for millenia without this new technology. One could hardly call it a need.

-
Cheetah, great long post too BTW. True enough about the "new" ideas and the J man link. [img]smile.gif[/img]



Yes! That's pretty much what I meant but you said it better! [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 12-05-2001, 11:03 AM   #40
Donut
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Posts: 5,571
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


I see nothing wrong with someone making a "thingy", then going around telling people about how good his "thingy" is.





There's no need for this kind of language.
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