The War Is On!

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by The Darke: Originally posted by MagiK: QUOTE]In one way I sort of agree with Fable, the USA needs to change it's foreign policy..]

The USA and many other nations needs to ask and then address what made foreign nation terrorists in the first place. (Not as simple as it sounds I accept.)[/QUOTE]
I'm not flaming you Darke, your post just seems to be the one to open the door.
I've read alot of these the US needs to address the reasons that there is terrorists posts, as if the reason there is terrorists is because these countries,and peoples have been sweet innocent victims and done nothing in their history, society,or what ever to deserve the postion that they are in. It's not popular in the "modern" thinking world, but the fact is "You may not deserve what you get, but You ALLWAYS get what you deserve"!
Last week the UN came out with a report basicly stating that there is terrorists because these countries are poor. I submit it is THE exact opposite is true, because there are terrorists, these countries are poor. These countries don't have stable gov'ts (definded as having the support of the people),these gov'ts are dictatorships, these countries soceities don't place the same value on human life as the Western world does. In the vast majorities of these regions, these people have been fighting each other since BEFORE most of the Western countries came into existance. Yet, some how it is the West's FAULT, sorry I don't buy it!
The West is not totaly at fault, nor are they totaly blameless.

Example 1: Saudi oil, these poor people are been taken advanage of by the mean evil West. Standard Oil signed oil drilling contracts with the Saudis in the early 20th century, So it must be the fault of the USA that the Saudis are selling their oil, and the fault of the West that the Saudis have the form of gov't they have. In order for that to be true one MUST forget that the Saudis were perhaps the best traders and merchants (in the World) for over 1000 years. That is the main reason for the spread of Islam through-out the Indian ocean and as far as the Phillipeans (sp?).
Yet, we are expected to buy that these great civilizations with thousands of years of experiance in the buyings and selling of goods were taken advantage of by an upstart country?
Civilizations that have made throughout their histories great advances in inventions, technoligies, and civilization!!!!!!!!
Would it not stand to reason that the Saudis bear the brunt of the fault, because they did not understand the value of the commodity they were sitting on? Was not the oil still the Suadis oil until they exchanged money for it? Is it the Fault of the West that the Saudis (not necessarily the Saudis, but rather counties on the Arbian peninsula throughout history) have been a monarchy for 1000's of years? Or the West's fault that after the West threw off the yoke of the Ottoman Empire, from around the Arabian peninsula's neck and re-established the monarchy, that the Saudi people excepted it and allowed it to continue EVEN AFTER western troops have left?

Example 2: Afghanistan a country made of of ethinic tribes, I'll repeat that, ETHINIC TRIBES!
These people do not see themselves as one people but rather as differant groups of people! The Afghanis have FORGOTTEN more about enthinc hatred, and racism then the West will ever know!
These people kill each other over the smallest slight or perceived slight. Yet it is the West's fault that these warring tribes can't get together long enough to form a stable govt. and country where the enconomy can grow and flurish?
These warring tribes take PRIDE in the fact that they have defeated two Major Empires, and have not been conquered since "Alexander the Great". Yet it is the West's fault that they kill each other and cannot work together?

Example 3: Sub-Sahara Africa, Counrties made up of ethinic tribes, for most of the 20th century the only stable govts were run by the Western powers! I know some of you are going to scream colonialism, but you can't excape the FACT that in EVERY country that the western powers have given up, there has been an increase in instabily, and drop in economies. Yet the west gets blamed for letting these people decide their own fate and govt.? Did not the West pull out of these countries as was demanded by many in the world? Did not the West, before they left the said countries, Help set-up govt's? Did not the West show these govt's how to work and be efficient (if only by example of how the originazation works)? Somehow it seems to be the West's fault that these people CAN NOT work their problems out!

Example 4: Central and South America, after years of revolutions and 2-bit dictators these countries have started to form stable govts. Their economies are starting to grow, their way of life is getting better! They STILL have along way to go before they are equal to the Western world, but they are starting the long, hard climb!
Is there room for improvement YES! Will these Improvement happen, yes, as long as the people of these countries strive for it! Is the West helping, yes. Should the West do more, maybe.
Are the changes happening fast enough, too slow for some, too fast for some, about right for others.

Now having said all of that, The WEST IS NOT BLAMELESS, BUT NEITHER IS THE WEST COMPLETELY AT FAULT! (done in allcaps and repeated because I know that someone will miss it and try to say that I'm saying that the West is totaly blameless) Each of us bare responsiblity for our own actions, and to some degree, responibility for our Govt's actions while, and ONLY while, we were able to and did particpate in the process of governing our countries. Atrocities (or perceived atrocities)have been done on all sides in any conflict, or by every disagreeing party, It's not pretty it's not fair, nor is it right, BUT IT IS LIFE! And to igore that fact, is assinine, hyopcritical, and to comit the atrocity of lying.
(I'm not saying any particular person is any of those things, just that the logic of ignoring that fact is)
1st Edit for spelling corrections (there will probibly be more to follow )

[ 03-30-2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

Originally posted by John D Harris: [QB][/QB]

I didn't want to re-post all of that John but did want to make one comment..."Ditto!"

Great post.

[Ezekial]

I normally stay out of these discussions, but I just had to say John D, that was a great post!

To add to it, I feel that one of the problems for many countries post-colonialism is that instead of trying to work things out the government like the power so take an easy way and blame groups unable to defend themselves (ie the West).

Slightly off topic, one thing that really annoys me is people talking about the US war on terror..if this is the case, can we bring all the British armed forces home please!

[Donut]

Originally posted by khazadman: how would you solve the problem then smeagol?you can't play nice with thugs these bastards.playing nice is what got the israelis where they are today. my father taught me that if someone hits you,hit them back harder.if someone tries to kill you you kill them.

It certainly seems to be working for Israel!

[/)eathKiller]

I think the reality is that the world we live in is free but only to an extent. We all, as a race, need to come to terms that we can. indeed, enforce and voice our own opinions but all freedom stops when the line crosses over into altering the path of another man's mortality. Hence, if you take another persons life then and only then does it go beyond the law, if you endanger a person, or damage their rights to freedom then that too goes against the universal law. We must come to terms with this belife and this alone to understand what it means to be human. If we can abide by these laws and not care about everything else then maybe we can move on without our differinces and work to IMPROVE humanity as a whole! I see seperation as self-destruction, and someone has to make a stand! I look forward to the day when all political barriers are broken down and we can refer to ourselves as the singular people of a world nation.

That is SO not going to happen for... like... ever...

but still it's what I envision Arcadia to be...

[Attalus]

The problem with the "Blame the U.S." mentality is that none of the critics that nitpick our "Wa r on Terrorism" seem to accept that it is indeed a war. True, we did not declare war of Afghanistan, but they did receive an ultimatum ("Surrender Osama bin Ladena and his Lieutenants, close the training camps, or we will take you out.") and they ignoed it to their disaster. Now, if the legitimate government of a state ignores ultimata from the world's only remaining superpower, they should expect war. In war, innocents are going to die, regrettably. Do they think that we are intentionally killing innocents? What kind of military sense would that make? Only the fact of the successful demonization of the U.S. by the Arab media could create such animosity. That is the only thing that we should make an effort to change. These terrorists were mostly middle class, for crying out loud. They weren't poor, just vicious.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

The "War on Terrorism" helps in many ways, one is that it kills the blood thirsty SOB's who commit and volunteer to commit the atrocities of terrorism.

Yet seemingly it is ok to be bloodthirsty in return??

In one way I sort of agree with Fable, the USA needs to change it's foreign policy..it needs to lay down the law and not be afraid to project the power that belongs to the 800lb Gorilla. The USA needs to smash every haven that exists for terrorists and let the rest of the world know that the biggest baddest MF in the world isn't going to kiss butt to any petty terorist/wanna be leader who thinks they can FORCE the civilised world to bow to their terror. There is a good thing in being the most powerful nation in the world and letting some of the rotten apples know that they exist only at our discreation. Its scary when the lion roars isn't it?

Many believe it was this exact atitude that has created the hostility in such countire towards the U.S.A.

[Attalus]

Well, they can have their "attitude." We will continue to search out and destroy all who oppose us in arms. What do they find so offensive in our anger and thirst for vengeance, anyway? They get mad at us for siding with Israel, but they don't care that Saddam Hussein has killed more Muslims than we ever have, and they were his nominal fellow-Muslims. And how about our rescue of the Muslim Croats that the Serbs tried to massacre? I'm sure that we don't get any credit for that, either. No, I'm not worrying about their tender sensibilities.

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by khazadman: how would you solve the problem then smeagol?you can't play nice with thugs these bastards.playing nice is what got the israelis where they are today. my father taught me that if someone hits you,hit them back harder.if someone tries to kill you you kill them.

It certainly seems to be working for Israel![/QUOTE]Actually Donut, the Israeli's have had the means to wipe the palistinians out completely since the mid to early 70's. Only the restraining hands of their western allies have held them from doing something permanently about the PLO. Id also like to mention that the other arabs in the area have in their time also killed Palistinians by the bucket load...the former King of Jordan for one waged an all out war to drive them out of his country a couple of decades ago.

Originally posted by /)eathKiller: That is SO not going to happen for... like... ever... but still it's what I envision Arcadia to be...

If it means compromising with evil, if it means giving up the right of all people to be free then it isn't worth having any way.

On a side note...I truely believe that MOST people aren't intelligent enough to know how to handle freedom..they are very sheep like and need to be lead.