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Old 09-10-2001, 04:52 PM   #151
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Join Date: August 9, 2001
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Posts: 694
Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
Troll eh? Is that an attempt to poke fun...how clever

And I don't think the door was ever open for you, it seems like you battered your way in!

If you want to start an Anti-America thread then do so, but please keep it out of here!

For your information, I invited Anomie to this forum and particularly to this thread. Not that anybody needs an invitation to jump in on this, or any other, thread.


And again, chill with the accusations about Anti-Americanism.



[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-10-2001).]
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Old 09-10-2001, 04:58 PM   #152
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
The problem is that we want equality and all the benefits, but are not willing to accept any costs! The beneficial advancements and achievements of the western countries have all come with their own costs. And as unfortunate as it is, to bring the developing countries forward, there are going to be some costs involved, both for the western countries and for the developing countries.

Moridin, I think as far as I am concerned, it might be time to bring this debate to a close. It could go on ad infinitum. We are all just getting angry at each other, feeling the other is not listening. That is such a pity, but perhaps was inevitable.

I have tried to show that the WTO and GATS are founded on injustice, and in both design and implementation, perpetuate existing inequalities between rich and developing countries.

If you cant see how America and Europe have been benefiing from the unequal global situation that Europe did so much to create in the first place with colonisation...... Can't see the inhumanity inherent in the global system that is currently being put in place, then you can't. There's no point us falling out about it.

How I see it is how I see it, and how you, John D and countless others see it is how you see it. Our world views are different. I think I am right, you think that you are. Our attempts at communication seem not to be meeting with much success at present, and I don't want this debate to degenerate into insults, name calling or anything else.

I have to say I find it difficult to debate with people who take any comment about their country as a personal slight. My comments about G. Bush, American politics and multinationals are not intended to be a dig at you, John D Harris or anyone else. (I do not particularly identify with my country, and am quite happy to point to the many aspects of it which I find appalling (the current government being first on the list), I am also equally happy to praise the parts I find delightful, of which there are many. We are all different. I respect that and wish to continue to do so.)

The reason America is such a target, as I've already said...... oh, god, no...... forget it............ I've said it....... again and again........

It seems pointless for me to continue as part of this debate. I feel that I'm making the same points over and over again.

As human beings, we owe a duty to one another, of care. I believe we are on this planet to look after each other, and to look after the planet. I don't believe globalisation helps us do either, for all the reasons that I've stated elsewhere in this thread.



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Old 09-10-2001, 05:12 PM   #153
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Join Date: August 9, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Diogenes, you rock!!

Your responses are beautiful, clear and succinct (and I agree with 'em!!!). Here on a sunny(ish) UK afternoon, me and my best friend Janey are cheering
as we read. Please do post more!!
And comments like this do wonders for my mood as well

Ditto for yours, Flotsdale
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Old 09-10-2001, 05:16 PM   #154
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Moridin, I think as far as I am concerned, it might be time to bring this debate to a close.
NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well, stop if you must, Silver Cheetah, at least for now.

For whatever it's worth, your last post above makes a fine ending to your impressive contributions in this thread. I'm glad to "know" you. Please feel free to jump in more on other threads here.



[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-10-2001).]
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Old 09-10-2001, 05:56 PM   #155
Moridin
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Moridin, I think as far as I am concerned, it might be time to bring this debate to a close. It could go on ad infinitum. We are all just getting angry at each other, feeling the other is not listening. That is such a pity, but perhaps was inevitable.
I have tried to show that the WTO and GATS are founded on injustice, and in both design and implementation, perpetuate existing inequalities between rich and developing countries.
If you cant see how America and Europe have been benefiing from the unequal global situation that Europe did so much to create in the first place with colonisation...... Can't see the inhumanity inherent in the global system that is currently being put in place, then you can't. There's no point us falling out about it.
How I see it is how I see it, and how you, John D and countless others see it is how you see it. Our world views are different. I think I am right, you think that you are. Our attempts at communication seem not to be meeting with much success at present, and I don't want this debate to degenerate into insults, name calling or anything else.
I have to say I find it difficult to debate with people who take any comment about their country as a personal slight. My comments about G. Bush, American politics and multinationals are not intended to be a dig at you, John D Harris or anyone else. (I do not particularly identify with my country, and am quite happy to point to the many aspects of it which I find appalling (the current government being first on the list), I am also equally happy to praise the parts I find delightful, of which there are many. We are all different. I respect that and wish to continue to do so.)
The reason America is such a target, as I've already said...... oh, god, no...... forget it............ I've said it....... again and again........
It seems pointless for me to continue as part of this debate. I feel that I'm making the same points over and over again.
As human beings, we owe a duty to one another, of care. I believe we are on this planet to look after each other, and to look after the planet. I don't believe globalisation helps us do either, for all the reasons that I've stated elsewhere in this thread.
Silver Cheetah,

I agree I think this debate probably has come to an end as we have strayed from the original purpose.

I would like to put in a few ‘closing’ comments.

First of all, as I stated earlier, it is not our view on the world that differs, it is our approach on how things should be fixed. I hope you can agree with me on this. Please do not point out things as untruth. Your third paragraph does not portray me correctly. Nowhere in any of my posts have I disagreed with any of those issues, again I am repeating myself, but I think I need to make this clear…I agree with the inequality, I agree that we are benefiting, I agree with the inhumanity, never did I not. Where we disagree is on the issue of resolution!

Secondly, I do not take critisism of the US as bashing, I too criticize the US, but I dislike it when the US is singled out, time and again, to point out flaws inherent in ALL industrialized countries. I know it is easy to pick out the US, but it just seems, since so few (if any) examples of other country’s governments or corporations are ever given, that the US is being bashed and not just criticized.

I think both sides have been argued effectively and I am thankful for the discussion and all the new insights it has given me. I promise that I for one am not going to let my ‘study’ of this issue drop with this thread.

I am sorry this had to end in attacks of the posters rather than the topic.

Diogenes and Anomie: Thank you for input on this topic as well. Your points were well made and welcomed. Like I stated above, I am sorry it had to disintegrate away from the topic.


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I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
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Old 09-10-2001, 05:57 PM   #156
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
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Posts: 1,781
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well, stop if you must, Silver Cheetah, at least for now.

For whatever it's worth, your last post above makes a fine ending to your impressive contributions in this thread. I'm glad to "know" you. Please feel free to jump in more on other threads here.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-10-2001).]
Thanks Diogenes! I'ts been great debating with all of you on this topic, especially Moridin, who has put a lot of time and effort into this thread. I've learnt from you all.



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Old 09-10-2001, 06:09 PM   #157
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:


I think both sides have been argued effectively and I am thankful for the discussion and all the new insights it has given me. I promise that I for one am not going to let my ‘study’ of this issue drop with this thread.

I am sorry this had to end in attacks of the posters rather than the topic.

Diogenes and Anomie: Thank you for input on this topic as well. Your points were well made and welcomed. Like I stated above, I am sorry it had to disintegrate away from the topic.


Thanks Moridin. It's been a great discussion! And very much ditto re 'study' of the issue.

My motivation in posting this thread was to provoke discussion, to learn new things, and to communicate with both like minded and non like minded people on the topic. I reckon I've done it in spades!

Never expected the thread to last so long, again, thanks to all, especially yourself, for all the input.


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Old 09-10-2001, 07:35 PM   #158
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
Silver Cheetah, I do hope you are not going away for good? I have really enjoyed following this dabate and have learned a great deal from it, even though I have not contributed much.
Please look in on other threads, or start new ones about.... oh... vegetarianism.... or GM food pros and cons..... or... astronomy.... art....anything! Maybe even start playing games and contribute to the game forums, lol!

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Old 09-15-2001, 08:50 AM   #159
anomie
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Join Date: September 8, 2001
Location: Yellow Springs, OH
Posts: 10
Hi,
You folks made some good points about several things. Moridin, I am still researching specific injuries that the GAT(s) treaty has caused people (I'm not concerned about nations). I hear more these days about negative effects of NAFTA and the World Bank -- for example, Mexican farmers out of work due to US agricultural imports flooding their market (off of NPR radio) and displaced communities in African nations due to poorly administrated national projects funded by the World Bank (looking for source).

Regarding the recent tragedy in America, there is much to be said. The following link may be of interest on this topic:
Working for Change , an alternative to the mainstream media take on the topic.
(http://www.workingforchange.com/arti...m?ItemId=11917)
Perhaps we should start a thread on alternative news sites to find information about the attacks on the World Trade Center/Pentagon?

Peace,

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Old 09-16-2001, 05:28 PM   #160
Silver Cheetah
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
Quote:
Originally posted by anomie:
Hi,
You folks made some good points about several things. Moridin, I am still researching specific injuries that the GAT(s) treaty has caused people (I'm not concerned about nations). I hear more these days about negative effects of NAFTA and the World Bank -- for example, Mexican farmers out of work due to US agricultural imports flooding their market (off of NPR radio) and displaced communities in African nations due to poorly administrated national projects funded by the World Bank (looking for source).

Regarding the recent tragedy in America, there is much to be said. The following link may be of interest on this topic:
Working for Change , an alternative to the mainstream media take on the topic.
(http://www.workingforchange.com/arti...m?ItemId=11917)
Perhaps we should start a thread on alternative news sites to find information about the attacks on the World Trade Center/Pentagon?

Peace,

Anomie, any info you dig up, could you post to me too? Thanks very much! By the way, where are you? Haven't bumped into you at all on the forum....

------------------
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Um. Suggest you have a look at Silver Cheetah's GATS thread. Interesting. Fljotsdale General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 20 08-29-2001 10:23 AM


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