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Old 09-10-2003, 02:12 PM   #11
Indemaijinj
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I'm in favor of executing him.

Not because any justice would be done that way, but just because it would magnify the grotesqueness of the whole situation tenfold.
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:46 PM   #12
Reeka
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Well the young man was not drunk or mentally imparied it seems. What I can't figure out is why in the hell he was doing it naked!
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:59 PM   #13
Faceman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Indemaijinj:
I'm in favor of executing him.

Not because any justice would be done that way, but just because it would magnify the grotesqueness of the whole situation tenfold.
Yip.
That law is stuuupid. It basically says: "If you commit a felony and meanwhile somebody is struck by lightning you're a murderer."
Also: What does "during" mean exactly in this text. Lots of deaths (car accidents, 3rd world kids) are occuring during my writing this post. If I was shooting up myself with some heroine would I be responsible for those?
I guess not because I'm not directly connected to them. So if you commit a felony but are not directly connected to the dying guy are you not responsible?
What would be the case with our stair-tripping husband?

I can't grasp the idea of this law (except for fast conviction of felons). You can basically convict someone of murder legally when he did not commit murder nor intend to just because of the circumstances. So you basically sentence someone for a crime he DID NOT COMMIT because he is a felon.
And you're actually saying that there are murder laws without mens rea in the US???

And why aren't all second degree murderers and vonluntary manslaughterers charged with that rule? Assault or drug trafficking are felonies and if they result in death they would be up for murder one in that case.

[ 09-10-2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]
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Old 09-10-2003, 03:09 PM   #14
Chewbacca
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How sad and odd... Reeka, what town did this occur in? I'm just curious as I am an Alabaman myself....
...and I am praying this naked guy wasn't someone I know!
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Old 09-10-2003, 03:16 PM   #15
Night Stalker
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
How sad and odd... Reeka, what town did this occur in? I'm just curious as I am an Alabaman myself....
...and I am praying this naked guy wasn't someone I know!
[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] Wait a sec, Chewie. You're from Alabama and live in Boston?

*grimaces in pain imagining the accent* Sorry, couldn't help it LOL! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 09-10-2003, 04:54 PM   #16
Seraph
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Quote:
Someone mentioned the airport bomb and foreseeability. This isn't the same. The legislature in (I think) all states have decided that if you commit a felony, you are on the hook for any deaths resulting during that felony. The legislature has dictated that the commission of a felony is so dangerous that any deaths ensuing from it are per se foreseeable.

Also, there is no mens rea component to the felony murder rule, so your intent or "guilty mind" is not a question. In fact, the felony murder rule is often argued to be unfair. It is the single instance in the law where you can skip manslaughter, skip murder 2, and go straight to murder 1, a capital offense, and get the death penalty without ever having premeditated or intended to harm anyone.

In fact, if you're holding up a liquor store with your buddy, and HE shoots the clerk, you can get (and some have gotten) the murder 1 death penalty. In fact, if the store clerk shoots your cohort you are liable for THAT killing (ANY killing during your commission of a crime) and can get the death penalty. Get this one: you're driving back from a Phish show with your friends, you've got a hit of acid in your wallet (a felony) and you wreck and kill one of those friends. I've never seen this instance, but felony murder might apply.
Be careful about what you say about "all states", in New York felony murder is only a capital offense if the murder was intentional. In addition, it is only a crime if it was commited durring a violent felony[1].

Here are the relavent parts of the New York Penal Law.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/we...yfelonymur.htm

New yorks felony murder prevents the "In fact, if you're holding up a liquor store with your buddy, and HE shoots the clerk, you can get (and some have gotten) the murder 1 death penalty." In New York this is only the case if you knew that your cohort was armed, and you can prove that you wern't armed. If you bring weapons into a crime then as a thinking person you have to realize that there is a chance someone could be killed (and IMHO you deserve the murder 2 charge, you'll note that this isn't a capital offense in NYS).

It prevents the "In fact, if the store clerk shoots your cohort you are liable for THAT killing (ANY killing during your commission of a crime) and can get the death penalty." issue as murder as a participant in the crime can not be a victim of felony murder.

"Get this one: you're driving back from a Phish show with your friends, you've got a hit of acid in your wallet (a felony) and you wreck and kill one of those friends. I've never seen this instance, but felony murder might apply". Again, New York only applies to violent felonies[1] and requires that the act be commited "in the course of and in furtherance of" the crime. Running someone over with a car would probably not count as a "furtherance of" the drug posession felony.

[1]robbery, burglary, kidnapping, arson, rape in the first degree, sodomy in the first degree, sexual abuse in the first degree, aggravated sexual abuse, escape in the first degree, or escape in the second degree. (I think thats all)
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Old 09-10-2003, 05:37 PM   #17
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Night Stalker:
quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
How sad and odd... Reeka, what town did this occur in? I'm just curious as I am an Alabaman myself....
...and I am praying this naked guy wasn't someone I know!
[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] Wait a sec, Chewie. You're from Alabama and live in Boston?

*grimaces in pain imagining the accent* Sorry, couldn't help it LOL! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]LMAOLOL!!! Many years of speech therapy and moving around before my family settled in Bama when I was 12 have left me with very little of a southern accent. I have only lived in Beantown going on 4 years so I only say things like:
"Hey let's go fah a ride in the cah ya'll" after several stiff drinks.

*sigh* I miss Bama, we'll be moving back as soon as my sweeties schooling is finished. Thank goodness the cold oh the cold!

[ 09-10-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]
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Old 09-10-2003, 05:44 PM   #18
Timber Loftis
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Obviously, good points Seraph. All states differ a bit. I was speaking in vanilla law school speak, so forgive me. I was harping on the felony murder concept generally. However, I went looking and HERE are death row statistics for all states. For each one, click on the state and scroll down to look for the answer to the question "Is Felony Murder a Capital Offense."

You will find that in Alabama, it is NOT.

You will also find that New York's answer is in accordance with what you have said: "No, murder in the course of a felony qualifies for the death penalty, but murder must be intentional." I should have made mention of this and I should have remembered it, since at one point in time I had to learn it for the NY bar. Well, ooooooooops is all I really can say in my defense. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 09-10-2003, 05:53 PM   #19
Rokenn
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:Well, ooooooooops is all I really can say in my defense. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
haha, I'm not sure this is something I would want to hear my lawyer say during a trial [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:40 PM   #20
Reeka
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Chewy,

It happened in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The young man, who was a student at the University of Alabama, by the name of Brian Sellers (not a friend of yours I hope). I can't remember the first name, but the gentleman who died was a Mr. Cabaniss.

BTW, how can you stand it up there? I mean, all those yankees running around. [img]smile.gif[/img] . Ooops, Z is a transplanted yankee. Maybe he won't see this.
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