Lets play "Blame some one else!!"

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

Schools suspending more kindergartners 33 disciplined in Philadelphia in four months By Mary Claire Dale Associated Press PHILADELPHIA | One hit a pregnant teacher, another exposed himself and another stabbed a classmate with a pencil. They’ve all been suspended from school this year. And they’re all kindergartners. In the first four months under new schools chief Paul Vallas, 33 kindergartners have been suspended from Philadelphia public schools, up from just one during the same period last year. ‘‘The goal is to get the parents in,’’ said Gwen Morris, who oversees alternative education for the 200,000-student district. ‘‘What it says is, we have a uniform policy that everyone will be held to.’’ The U.S. Department of Education does not break down school suspensions by grade level, but several researchers said they see anecdotal evidence that the youngest schoolchildren are being suspended more frequently. Morris believes suspensions, combined with counseling and other measures, are an effective tool in the city’s crackdown on school violence. None of the kindergartners has been suspended a second time, she said. ‘‘The time they spend at home together is clearly a time for them to figure out why this is happening,’’ Morris said. Walter Gilliam, a child psychologist at Yale University’s Child Study Center, said he doubts young children make the connection between an action in school and the ensuing suspension, which can last up to 10 days. ‘‘Ten days is a lifetime to a 3-, 4- or 5-year-old,’’ said Gilliam, who is working on a study of preschooler suspensions. ‘‘They can’t even fathom 10 days. It’s like waiting for Christmas.” ‘‘I think it’s a bad move, because it absolves the school from feeling that it’s necessary to deal with that problem within the school building. You push it out to the community, you push it out to the family home, and that’s where it started to begin with,’’ Gilliam said. Gilliam is studying suspensions in Connecticut, where 311 kindergartners were suspended in 1999-2000, about 92 percent of them out-of-school suspensions. Gilliam said 79 percent of Connecticut’s kindergarten suspensions went to boys, and about half involved allegations of physical violence, sexual harassment or verbal threats. Nearly 52 percent of the suspensions went to black kindergartners, 35.2 percent to Hispanics and 12.1 percent to whites, he said.Connecticut,’’ Gilliam said, echoing criticism from the Rev. Jesse Jackson and others that zero tolerance policies and other disciplinary codes are disproportionately applied to minorities. Among the Connecticut kindergartners, three-quarters of the suspensions went to students from the lowest socio-economic rung, Gilliam said. That suggests to Peg Oliveira of Connecticut Voices for Children that low-income students are not getting high-quality preschool. The pre-kindergarten experience probably isn’t preparing them for what they need to do before they get to kindergarten,’’ said Oliveira, whose child-advocacy group has researched the issue.

What do all of you think of this article? Personaly, this partrealy bothers me.

‘‘Ten days is a lifetime to a 3-, 4- or 5-year-old,’’ said Gilliam, who is working on a study of preschooler suspensions. ‘‘They can’t even fathom 10 days. It’s like waiting for Christmas.” ‘‘I think it’s a bad move, because it absolves the school from feeling that it’s necessary to deal with that problem within the school building. You push it out to the community, you push it out to the family home, and that’s where it started to begin with,’’ Gilliam said.

As I see it , the person quoted claims in a round about way that it is the schools job to train peoples children how to behave. I guess all you have to do anymore is just squirt out a kid to be considered a parent now.

THis part also bothers me,

Nearly 52 percent of the suspensions went to black kindergartners, 35.2 percent to Hispanics and 12.1 percent to whites, he said.Connecticut,’’ Gilliam said, echoing criticism from the Rev. Jesse Jackson and others that zero tolerance policies and other disciplinary codes are disproportionately applied to minorities. Among the Connecticut kindergartners, three-quarters of the suspensions went to students from the lowest socio-economic rung, Gilliam said. That suggests to Peg Oliveira of Connecticut Voices for Children that low-income students are not getting high-quality preschool. The pre-kindergarten experience probably isn’t preparing them for what they need to do before they get to kindergarten,’’ said Oliveira, whose child-advocacy group has researched the issue.

It bothers me because when I went to school there was no "Pre Kindergarten" schooling. Everything I went through in my 5 short years before kindergarten was called PARENTING!! There was no such thing a suspensions for kindergartners. The only diffrence between 5 yr olds now and when I was 5 is how the parents raise them. THe other thing that bothers me is how they are trying to make race an issue. Maybe it isnt because they are black and spanish that they are being suspended. Maybe it is because they are misbehaveing, oh wait , I forgot the white devil is trying to keep the black kindergartner down too.

[Eg0[)e@th]

This seems to be another example of the loonies in the far left screwing things up again. Schools can't make up for lousy (or a complete lack of) parenting, and they shouldn't. Parenting is the job of the (*GASP!*) parent.

I didn't have any pre-kindergarten schooling either. Everything I've seen has shown that most pre-kindergarten "schools" are actually detrimental in the long run. This is time the children should be spending with their parents.

[Borvik]

I fully agree to you. The school is NOT the place where children have to learn how to behave and things like that (on the other hand they should not forget all their manners there).
I don't know how this could happen, or where this opinion is coming from. And there is even more going wrong. When I was punished (is this the right word?) for misbehaving (when chatting with the classmates for example you had to write a 3 to 4 page long protocol about the lesson) and I tried to complain about it (because I thought it's suuuuch an inustice), my father used to say: Better you'd not complain to much about it and have the work done. You surely weren't innocent. And IF you were innocent, then it won't hurt you too much - think of the time you did something and noone punished you.
What happens today? More and more parents run into the schools and complain, that the teacher obviously don't like their children. And how they dare to do all those mean things... (sigh)
So there are 2 problems: They expect the teachers, to educate the children, but on the other hand they don't let them!

[Cerek the Barbaric]

As a parent of two boys in this age group I can speak from experience that I agree with the sentiment expressed by everyone so far...it is MY job (and my wife's) to teach our kids what behavior is or is not acceptable. The school helps "refine" these lessons by teaching them additional rules they have to follow, but the primary job is ours.

A good example occurred just last week. Both of our older boys are well-behaved (most of the time anyway), but the younger of the two has a severe "stubborn streak" in him and regular methods of disciplining him don't always work. One day last week, he received a "red card" from the teacher. This is our school's method for "grading" the child's behavior. When my wife and I asked him why he got a red card, he said it was because he called the teacher "stupid". He knows this is wrong because he has done the same thing at home when he was mad and been disciplined for it.

We both told him that he would have to tell the teacher he was sorry and he told us that he had "said sorry" to her twice already.

"Well, you're going to tell her again tomorrow" we told him and we both went with him to the classroom to make sure he did it. We also went to let the teacher know we supported her discipline and did NOT condone our child's behavior.

AFA the other school suspending Pre-K and Kindergarten students, I have to agree with the psychologists....kids that young don't fully understand "extended punishments". Thier discipline needs to be immediate (so they will associate it with the inappropriate behavior), but it also needs to be short-term. Ten days IS an eternity to 4-6 year olds and they won't understand why they are still being punished for something that happened so long ago.

[Epona]

Originally posted by Eg0[)e@th: This seems to be another example of the loonies in the far left screwing things up again.

Er... excuse me, but I am a far left 'loony' thank you very much. Trying to blame someone else? Looks like that's what you're doing. "Oh it's not the parents/schools fault, it's the 'far left'". Please think before you start on the verbal abuse in future.

[ 12-17-2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Epona ]

[Borvik]

Ok 10 days is a long time. But maybe it's not only for the punishment, why they make it that long. It's also done - if I understood it right - that the parents will surely the opportunity to explain everything in all detail to the child. Now this could be a problem anyway. The children may not have this kind of *support* at home, what could be an explanation for their behavior on the other hand. In this case the method of punishment would be obsolete. I guess it depends on the individual situation - like it always does.

edited some typos

[ 12-17-2002, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Borvik ]

[Grungi]

theres plenty of reasons TV being the main one, TV brings up children not the parents these days, it used to be families played with one another and helped each other out, and children didnt go out until they were at least 16 but now they go out at 10 and cause trouble because they have nothing else to do, theres no decent youth centres and TV is just a quick fix, im not saying im against TV as i love it [img]tongue.gif[/img] but it should be rationed to children, i wasnt allowed to watch when i was younger past 10 0 clock and only if it was something on worth seeing that my mum or dad would let me see and its done me no harm, parents have stopped being strict because the society view on strict parents is a bad one, and noone wants to appear to be like that, unfortunately you have to be strict with your children for them to respect you as an authority figure so long as you temper it with love and affection for them, i seen so many people on tv going "oh i couldnt say no to my child thats what loving him is about" well bull**** it is, saying no is called toughlove and is more important than saying yes yes yes all the time, there has to be some kind of discipline involved or the child will grow up with none and cause problems for itself later in life unless with a very strong character.

Due to the way society is going these days parents have children when they are just children themselves, they never get to grow up (again especially in a benefits state it all comes too easy) some kind of national service would be a good idea in all countries i think, only for 3 months or so, just to get a bit of discipline and toughen people up, either that or parents should start learning how to instill discipline properly (that would obviously be the ideal solution) I dont have children, but when i do i will make sure they know its my house and my rules and that until they are 16 regardless of their maturity they do not get to make the rules, but at the same time im going to give them everything i can to make their lives good, again taking my parents example that doesnt mean the latest pair of trainers or computer console, take them on good holidays for one, thats what my parents did, at the time i wanted the latest trainers instead i got a holiday to america (talk about letdown j/k) but i remember those experiences still, saw different culture stayed with two friends of the family in the US in california and new mexico and drove all the western states and was way better than any pair of trainers plus it was good for me in the long run, obviously need money to do all this but once a year its worth it.

Also if my children ever take drugs they will be kicked out of the house regardless of age and i will make sure they know that young and that im not joking, problem these days is parents know it goes on and do nothing, so it just keeps happening, sitting them down and giving endless lectures doesnt help. Theres no right way to parenting but theres definately a wrong way and unfortunately these days it seems so many parents (esp in the area im living in) are terrible at it, gangs of 14 year olds running around causing trouble, smashing windows, scaring people etc its the same in most countries, global problem id say, and that makes it one of the biggest problems the world is facing because these children are the future so if people dont start laying down some kind of structure now what will happen in 50 years when they are the "mature" ones, problem will escalate still further I hate the state or government intervening and i dont think its right for them to do so but in this instance i think if you have problem children (obviously severe problem children) then you should be forced to do some kind of parenting class and have no say in the matter.

ah well yet another unstructured rant from me hehe [img]smile.gif[/img] frankly some of the kids around here id happily gun down, shop was smashed and ransacked next door last night, whole window done in about 1 o clock, i heard it as i was still awake, kids running off and laughing, windows about 8 metres long, and they could go out of business as its boarded up and hard to tell if the place is open so noone is going in, a bunch of kids could wreck their small business, totally out of order, so obviously my solution would be line em up and shoot the little ****** failing that obviously improved parenting hehe

as for schools they can only pick up where the parents left off, its their business to teach and to impose some kind of discipline structure as well to set people up for the workplace environment, its not their place to babysit troubled children.

[Grungi]

oh btw in england we dont have compulsory kindergarten, school starts at 5 and i dont think i had any kind of preschool cept a bit of nursery which is probably along the same lines though i think less structured (ie play with some blocks and thats about it [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) if 4-6 year olds have problems then its normally caused by their environment where little things will affect them alot, which again goes back to the parents so its certainly not down to the school to sort em out..

[Borvik]

Some very interesting points you are having there Grungi

TV: I mostly agree here with you. But it won't help, if limiting watching TV to a certain amount of time. You have to take into account HOW this time is spent. I think that the whole family should watch the program, so things can be discussed, questions can be answered a.s.o.

Rules: I don't believe it's realistic to say that you will be the only one who'll make the rules. We're talking about children being human beings with needs, ideas, individual characters... There allways will be compromises or you won't need to wait until you kick them out - they will leave earlier. I guess you didn't mean it verbatim (right word?)

As for the drugs: kicking them out really won't be of any help for anyone. There is a lot more between doing nothing and kicking them out. But helping doesn't mean or course, that you have to supply them further dope. And it surely has nothing to do with love.
Talking for myself: The measures will depend on the situation

Originally posted by Grungi: Also if my children ever take drugs they will be kicked out of the house regardless of age and i will make sure they know that young and that im not joking, problem these days is parents know it goes on and do nothing, so it just keeps happe

Are you sure?
Now, Think about it.
I know one guy, who really went off the rails,
First it was cigarettes and alcohol underage, then soft drugs to hard drugs, then onto petty theft and he essentially ruined everything when he easily could have gone to college.
And why did he do this?
Probably since his parents were incredibly strict and authoritarian, they never took the time to talk with him or say why what he did was wrong; they simply issued all the commands from on high as it were and punished he most harshly But of course this made him resent and hate them, for example they forced him to go to church even though he did not belive.
And eventually they decided to chuck him out, but then they decided not to, However that just made it worse and they decided to keep him, but be even more strict etc, however given his age they could not realistically hope to do this, and I lost contact by that time so god knows what happened then.

As for My parents, they were not particularly strict, or whatever, But when they Punished me, they took the time to explain things, for example When I smoked some pot, they said that they were very disappointed since pot is a health risk (heart attack, Turning you Schizoid etc) and of course being illegal and a criminal record would be bad for me etc etc.
But Because I respected their fairness and themselves, I didn’t do it again.
Not to mention it made me quite sick, but I think the key is respect.

If the parents respect the children they will not try and force subjective values on them. At no point did my parents Try and force me to belive in anything, they let me come to my own mind, through discussion etc.
If the children respect the parents they will not be so rebellious and badly behaved.