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Old 10-28-2002, 11:30 PM   #21
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Thank you and good night gracie!
When someone holds an opinion this strongly, any attempt to debate them is pointless. Even if I cared enough to make any points in opposition, it is apparent that I would be dealing with a mind that has made its decision and is totally closed to other viewpoints. My advice to people is to simply avoid the argument (note the deliberate lack of use of the word "debate").

Don't say I didn't warn you people
[/QUOTE]Davros, It been my experience in life the most close minded are the ones that complain about others being close minded. In a like manner the most arguementative are the ones that say to another "all you want to do is argue" while ignoring their own argueing. It takes at least two to disagree, how they handle the disagreement determinds weither or not the disagreement is an arguement.
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Old 10-29-2002, 05:02 AM   #22
Davros
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Thank you and good night gracie!
When someone holds an opinion this strongly, any attempt to debate them is pointless. Even if I cared enough to make any points in opposition, it is apparent that I would be dealing with a mind that has made its decision and is totally closed to other viewpoints. My advice to people is to simply avoid the argument (note the deliberate lack of use of the word "debate").

Don't say I didn't warn you people
[/QUOTE]Davros, It been my experience in life the most close minded are the ones that complain about others being close minded. In a like manner the most arguementative are the ones that say to another "all you want to do is argue" while ignoring their own argueing. It takes at least two to disagree, how they handle the disagreement determinds weither or not the disagreement is an arguement.
[/QUOTE][img]smile.gif[/img]
Interesting points you raise JD, and I'll debate them with you if I may as I have always known you to listen and think on both sides of the discussion.

A prime tenet of my proposal is that a clear correlation has been established, whereby it is the custom of one party to steadfastly take unalterable positions on numerous discussion topics.

For confirmatory evidence I cite the following "because some times I do just stir the pot (yes I can admit it)". Before I get accused of quoting out of context, I am at pains to point out that whilst the above quote has been cut from a larger statement, the communicative purpose has not been altered, and it nevertheless openly confirms something of which many of us were aware. Our combative interlocutor, in the most basic on venacular, "enjoys a good stoush".

I quite admire the first point you make - I'll even go so far as to wholeheartedly endorse it [img]smile.gif[/img] . The most close minded are the ones that complain about others being close minded. Of course, if I were to go back over the many and varied posts by our good friend on such topics as atheism, public health care, and (gasp) gun control - I am confident that you would often come across words like "your missing my point", "you have no idea what you are talking about", "you don't understand", "you're still not listening to me", ....... really, need I go on?

Don't take my word for it though - set yourself the task of looking through those threads and seeing how often that theme comes through. Of course the big M wasn't the only one saying those sort of things - they come when either side fails to see the others' point - look for a consistent correlation though, and judge for yourself.

Onwards then to your last statement - "It takes at least two to disagree, how they handle the disagreement determinds weither or not the disagreement is an arguement." First of all an apology [img]smile.gif[/img] for including your spelling mistakes in my quoting - I am however hoping to enrol in Father Bronze's Grammarian Brigade. I ask you this - how often have you known our good friend to be prepared to disagree? How many times have you seen him say "well I think we will have to agree to disagree on that". The mantra that he seems to live by is "my way or the highway".

You may not see things from my perspective JD, and if you don't, then we will have to agree to disagree.

Looking forward to your rebuttal though, and an open exchange of viewpoints on the topic [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-29-2002, 05:57 AM   #23
AzureWolf
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
I don't see any examples of Israel going on unprovoked conquests.
Uh, magik are you forgetting the illegal settlements on land that is supposed to belong to palestine? What is that if not conquest of land albiet behind a thin facade.
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Old 10-29-2002, 06:38 AM   #24
Barry the Sprout
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Join Date: October 19, 2001
Location: York, UK.
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MagiK, this is another straw doll you have set up and managed to knock down wondrously easily. If there are any people on this board who actually are in favour of driving the Jews into the sea then I will happily join with you in arguing why the state of Israel is necessary.

However, your post demonises "the Arabs" to an extent that I simply can't agree with. What is this homogenous mass you describe, with every member hell bent on irrational destruction and murder? I don't think such a mass of people exist, personally. There are people who attack the Isreali's, although it would be a great overstatement to say they threatened the security of the state as a whole. I do not support those people, and I doubt even the most radical IW member does either. What I do support is making a distinction between the suicide bombers, members of Hizbollah and Hamas, and the ordinary Palestinian citizens.

Lets face it, the Isrealis treat the ordinary Palestinians like "lice" (as a Lebanese friend who's spent a lot of time in Isreal described it to me). Isreal is effectively an apartheid state, with the government officially sanctioning discrimination against people on racial grounds. Palestinians are regularly forced off of land or simply not allowed to move around the country due to checkpoints. Its completely unbelievable to think that checkpoints make the peace situation any better, and as Azure pointed out, its not like settlements are exactly fair under international law. The Palestinians demands are far from unreasonable: the return of the Occupied territories, the end of the apartheid system of government, and an officially recognised Palestinian state.

So just remember the next time you talk about "the Arab world" wanting the destruction of Isreal that it is a bit of a white lie really. I don't doubt that some people want that, but it would be like saying all Jews want to see the extirmination of the Arabs. Its simply not a fair description.

Davros, I personally don't think that there is anything wrong in writing something contraversial on the board to promote discussion. If it was written to deliberately annoy people however, then that is a bit different. But trying to start an argument isn't exactly all that bad in my view, as long as the argument is conducted in a civil manner. Which admittedly does sometimes get a bit difficult...
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Old 10-29-2002, 06:40 AM   #25
caleb
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: Tacoma, WA, U.S.A.
Age: 39
Posts: 2,615
Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

Thank you and good night gracie!

Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:

When someone holds an opinion this strongly, any attempt to debate them is pointless. Even if I cared enough to make any points in opposition, it is apparent that I would be dealing with a mind that has made its decision and is totally closed to other viewpoints. My advice to people is to simply avoid the argument (note the deliberate lack of use of the word "debate").

Don't say I didn't warn you people
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Old 10-29-2002, 07:53 AM   #26
The Hunter of Jahanna
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Join Date: September 25, 2001
Location: NY , NY
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Quote:
If there are any people on this board who actually are in favour of driving the Jews into the sea then I will happily join with you in arguing why the state of Israel is necessary.
I want to know why you think the state of Israel is necessary. Why should people of a certain religious leaning be given their own countrie? How come they get a "homeland" just because they are Jewish??Useing that logic christians,buddhist,wiccans and every other religion should be given a countrie for themselves as well because they need a "homeland" also. If they were given the land because they were persecuted by Hitler then the Palestinians deserve a homeland as well since they are currently being persecuted by Isreal.

this also bothers me
Quote:
In the 1920's the British and French created the states that now define the middle east. These were Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. Previously the Brittish promised the Jews a "National Home" in what is now known as the Palistine Mandate. But in 1921 the British seperated 80% of the mandate east of the Jordan rive and created the Arab Kingdom of Transjordan and gave it to the Arabian Monarch Abdullah instead of the Jews.
It bothers me because people from accross the globe are telling another group of people where and how they have to live.Under whos authority did England and France act when they created states and promised out land?If the U.N. did nothing to stop them from parceling out what wasnt theirs why do they now try to stop other countries from doing the same thing?It seems a lot like do as I say and not as I do.Then again the brittish government is still doing it today with Ireland.I wonder where the U.N. sanctions are concerning that?

I am not anti-Isreal, but at the same time I dont think that just because you belong to a certain group you are entitled to special treatment.
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Old 10-29-2002, 09:16 AM   #27
Davros
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C'mon JD - if I don't get some rebuttal soon I'm goin ta have ta crash for the night - I was so looking forward to developing new theories and exploring the possibilities
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Old 10-29-2002, 09:24 AM   #28
MagiK
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Azred:
I don't even bother thinking about the Middle East situation anymore. Several decades of abandoned efforts and failed attempts to bring about peace has led me to the conclusion that the situation between the Israelis and the Palestinians will not be resolved until one side completely wipes out the other.
I truly wish that were not the case, but one must deal with reality as it is.
I maintain that the problem isn't about Israelis and Palistinians, since there were no Palistinians untill the Arab League "created" the construct in the 1970's with wich to push their agenda (along with the PLO)
he problem is with Hostile Arabs from the surrounding regions fomenting dissension and trying to find ways to "Drive the Jews into the sea" Their words. Only Egypt and Jordan have made peace and even then, its still questionable as to how much support they are giveing the PLO.
 
Old 10-29-2002, 09:27 AM   #29
MagiK
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by True_Moose:
quote:
Originally posted by Attalus:
Very interesting Magik. I already knew most of it from my general reading. I have stated here and elsewhere that I think that since the Israelis could destroy the Palestineans any day and don't conclusively proves their ethical superiority. I, like you, have not come up with a single good thing to say about the Arab war of extermination against Israel.
Or else they have a good sense of where an action like that would land them..[/QUOTE]Where would it land them? They have proven at least 3 times that they can defeat the combined arms of the surrounding Arab nations, so what exactly would happen if they completely anhiliated all of the residents of the gaza and West bank? World condemnation...errr well, gee it seems to me that they already pretty much have that, no? Or worse yet, they could have more UN sanctions levied against them (lot of good that does). Seriously what would be the down side aside from some political flack?
 
Old 10-29-2002, 09:30 AM   #30
Davros
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Mandurah, West Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
C'mon JD - if I don't get some rebuttal soon I'm goin ta have ta crash for the night - I was so looking forward to developing new theories and exploring the possibilities
Damn - JD has left the building - and if there is no further debate tonight, I have to go too - time for some shut-eye - see you all bright and early in the morning
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