Religion II

[Garnet FalconDance]

Cerek, I feel sure the earth is still revolving-- a little more tilted perhaps . (But I think I just saw a pig fly across the yard outside [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] .)

None of us are out to prove anyone else 'wrong', you know. (yeah, I know you know, just figured I'd reiterate in case someone not familiar with our little debates might be reading.)

Re. prayer in schools: well, I really have no problem with this...AS LONG AS every student has the clear and unfettered choice to decline and the prayer does not reflect any particular doctrine. This may sound like I'm equivocating, but not really. It seems to be common concurrence that only Christians (incl. Jewish, Muslims, and Catholics) 'pray'. Not so! Nearly every (if not every) religious/spiritual belief 'prays' in some manner. I know I do and I'm sure fable does as well (to use only two examples of wicked [img]smile.gif[/img] pagans) We simply don't do so in the same words and to the same name. So if the Powers That Be (ie the govt and the schools) could figure a way to implement a plan in which all faiths could freely pray in the public school venue, I'd support it.

[WOLFGIR]

Hmm Garnet and Cerek, thats an interesting thiong you have going here. Religion and state.

In Sweden one king (Gustaf Vasa) seperated the church from the state once and for all. The church had for a long time been influencing the choice of kings and since the northern countries have been influencing each other hand sometimes had an arch bishope for the whole region, a danish bishop voted for a danish king on the Swedish throne and so on and vice versa. However Sweden pretty quickly adopted to the protestantic church, but Gustaf Vasa seperated the State from the church. IE the church held obidience to the Crown, and had to pay taxes for their land they held.

However christianity was held as the states religion for centuries and until somewhere in the 1970-s church and school was seperated. Freedom of belief mean s that you can´t force a kid to read the prayers in church, and thus, they can´t have it anymore. Religion is still a subject in school. And now there are also "freeschools" that can be more or less religious.

This is a problem though since the laws regarding schools states that any child hs the right to go to any school, religious or not and have their beliefs respected.

Another problem is that some religions finds the evolutionary theories blasphemy to their religious beliefs and they are not taught them correctly. This is in the school laws as well as one subject all have to learn!

So I guess that personally I would like to see a total seperation of religion and state and schools. You have the oppurtunity to go and pray in all schools. Muslims have the right to leave for praying and thus all can be treated equal, but some standards regarding education has to be met. Religion is an aspect of your own mind and can be taught properly in a church, Moské or at another religious place regarding your religion. School are to give all children an equal education. IMHO this would be the best solution.

If I ever have kids I would like for them to go to a none religious school so they have the oppurtunity to choose of their free will what or if they will believe and follow a religion.

Well that is at least how I see it..

[*\Conan/*]

Yesterday some of us posted bad expriences we have had in the past with visiting or being involved with a religion or Church affiliate. I would offer my respect to Epona ,Garnet, and to all who have experienced bad actions by people in the wake of this all.
Today, I wanted to tell you all of one of the great times I have had in the past in the same area.. [img]smile.gif[/img]
One time when I was stationed in Germany I went to Mittersil, Austria on a religous retreat. I would say 50 people altogether took this trip. We skied all day and got together for different reasons at night. Singing, praying, eating, and studies in the Bible. Although I have lost contact with people I met there I will always cherish that time. None of us wanted to leave after the week and during that short time we all grew a little in our "faiths" because of it. I am non-denominational and beleive in a relationship with God through Christ... many more people there were also. But no one cared about that..we just cared about each other. I want to keep this same attitude twards you all here. I just want to understand your alls convictions and beliefs. This is why I am replying in this thread.
I think prayer in schools is good... just as long as it wont effect anyones school work..and everyone gets to choose if they want to or not.
(Off topic...Garnet I love to arc weld ... the smell... the sparks. [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[Garnet FalconDance]

I agree with Conan--let today be "good religious experience day"! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

About three years ago I went to North Carolina to visit my mother and along the way we stopped in SC to visit my baby sister who was at the time still in the Marines. There was a very old Episopalian church there with some incredible grave markers (a strange like of mine--the history and evocation in those simple markers!) that my mother thought I would appreciate. We wandered the church yard and discovered there was to be a healing 'mass' in a few minutes all were invited to attend.

Now, my family suspects I'm not exactly your basic good Southern Baptist girl anymore (like I ever was ) but really is pretty vague about my beliefs (and I leave it at that as my mother has already sent my uncle to 'save' me and 'bring me back to the church' .) I was a little nervous about going into the church--too used to derision and unwelcome by Christians in general--but once I got inside, there was such an air of welcome tranquility......It was truly a holy and loving place. You could *feel* the presence of the Divine in the very air, I swear! The priest conducted the service which included prayers for those ailing and not present as well as those there and invited all regardless of their personal church affiliation to participate in the sacrament if they felt the call! I was floored!!! This went against everything I'd been taught and experienced in every other church I'd ever attended! My mother and sister encouraged me to participate (I did not take communion, tho) though they declined since they were Baptist and did not feel it appropriate to follow an Episopalian ceremony.

I still feel the peace acceptance of that experience.........

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Garnet FalconDance ]

[K T Ong]

I can never figure how we can think of separating religion from politics. How can religion be separated from any aspect of human existence?

But I suppose it all comes down to how we define religion. To me, religion is about ultimate concerns. What's the point of our existence? Is human life a fundamental or an incidental feature of the Cosmos? Where will I go when I die? To be religious is to be serious about finding answers to these and similar questions, and to believe it's worth our time finding out. You can go to church unfailingly every Sunday and donate millions to the poor like Oprah, but if you don't ask questions like these, then you're not a religious person.

In this sense of being religious, though, you can no longer settle for ready-made answers. You can't be dogmatic. Dogma would murder religion (in the sense in which I understand religion) -- and by dogma I can mean the dogma of the hardliner atheist as much as that of the fanatical believer. Instead you must be constantly searching, and retain an open mind. Dogma is just sheer intellectual laziness and it puts an end to all further inquiry.

Understood in this way, it should be perfectly possible for truly religious people to sit down together and talk, to share their insights and find out what they have in common, rather than fighting with each other over the respective dogmas to which they stubbornly cling (and they'd have no dogmas to cling to if they were truly religious, as I said). And religion of this nature should be an integral part of politics -- and science, art, philosophy etc etc. It should be an integral part of life itself.

Agree?

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[WOLFGIR]

quote:

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Originally posted by K T Ong:
[QB]I can never figure how we can think of separating religion from politics. How can religion be separated from any aspect of human existence?

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For thoose that have no religion? For thoose whoose religion that would suffer, politics are not about religion. To say that religion should be part of politics would IMHO mean that you would live in a religious country. And for me, I want to live in a free land where you can say and believe what you want without the everyday aspects being influenced by any religion. (This is not bantering you, I´m just giving my view since we have oppostie parts here..)

quote:

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But I suppose it all comes down to how we define religion. To me, religion is about ultimate concerns. What's the point of our existence? Is human life a fundamental or an incidental feature of the Cosmos? Where will I go when I die? To be religious is to be serious about finding answers to these and similar questions, and to believe it's worth our time finding out. You can go to church unfailingly every Sunday and donate millions to the poor like Oprah, but if you don't ask questions like these, then you're not a religious person.

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Exactly, I agree with you here. But don´t overlook thoose that aren´t religious, they might still ponder the same questions, but with some different angles on them.

quote:

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In this sense of being religious, though, you can no longer settle for ready-made answers. You can't be dogmatic. Dogma would murder religion (in the sense in which I understand religion) -- and by dogma I can mean the dogma of the hardliner atheist as much as that of the fanatical believer. Instead you must be constantly searching, and retain an open mind. Dogma is just sheer intellectual laziness and it puts an end to all further inquiry.

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Wow, very well said, a similiar thing I view life with, always trying to learn new things, learn how to better solve problems, trying to evolve. Very well said!

quote:

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Understood in this way, it should be perfectly possible for truly religious people to sit down together and talk, to share their insights and find out what they have in common, rather than fighting with each other over the respective dogmas to which they stubbornly cling (and they'd have no dogmas to cling to if they were truly religious, as I said). And religion of this nature should be an integral part of politics -- and science, art, philosophy etc etc. It should be an integral part of life itself.[QUOTE]
Oki, here things get a bit blurred together. Science and, art, philosophy integral part of religion? Nah, why do that? You force things into religious aspect. To consider them for religious people though fine.. I can´t argue there. But to mix them in the common room of debates for everyone is wrong, that leads to thoughtcontrol and no freedom. I don´t know if I might have missread you here somewhere. But I also agree that each area can consist in religions. Art that is religious do exist but they also exist in all other areas as well. Pure political art and art for arts sake exist. Don´t forget that some people are happy without any religion, that I guess is my most important viewpoint of this. To make a system religious will more or less lead to a more narrow thinking. At least in the past we have seen how this has developed..

Though I agree with your view points here, about keeping the discussion open and the evolving matters are indeed important matters.
[QUOTE]
Agree?

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Only to some degree I´m afraid

But I enjoyed reading your thoughts and see things from your viewpoint!

[K T Ong]

quote:

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To say that religion should be part of politics would IMHO mean that you would live in a religious country. And for me, I want to live in a free land where you can say and believe what you want without the everyday aspects being influenced by any religion.

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You're still adhering to the idea of religion as dogma -- and that I have already disowned. To me, free inquiry should be an essential part of religion. And to bring religion into politics is (according to my definition of religion) not to require of the rulers or the people that they be Christians, or Jews etc. It is simply to be serious about questions like: how should rulers rule? In such a way people will be happy? Why? What's the point? And, having asked such questions, to seek to work out answers that everyone will share, the rulers and the people alike.

quote:

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But don´t overlook thoose that aren´t religious, they might still ponder the same questions, but with some different angles on them.

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In my definition of religion, to seriously ponder such questions in any way at all is already to be religious.

quote:

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But to mix them in the common room of debates for everyone is wrong, that leads to thoughtcontrol and no freedom. I don´t know if I might have missread you here somewhere.

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I think you have. [img]smile.gif[/img] Look again at what I've said above. To mix a body of truly concerned people in the common room of debates for everyone leads to thought control and no freedom only if certain members of the group seek to enforce their views -- what I've already called dogma. I would only encourage people to sit down together and talk, though, and not force them. (Hey, if they were truly religious then they wouldn't need me or anyone to encourage them to do that anymore -- they'd do it themselves.)

Hope I've clarified a few things regarding my views...

[WOLFGIR]

You're still adhering to the idea of religion as dogma -- and that I have already disowned. To me, free inquiry should be an essential part of religion. And to bring religion into politics is (according to my definition of religion) not to require of the rulers or the people that they be Christians, or Jews etc. It is simply to be serious about questions like: how should rulers rule? In such a way people will be happy? Why? What's the point? And, having asked such questions, to seek to work out answers that everyone will share, the rulers and the people alike.

So your religion is to be serious? I think I understand better your viewpoint, but still you and I talk I think about to different things, and what I get stuck upon is the religion (not your version) but Religion as it is integrated with politics and the way of life.
And how can we get people to see your view upon religion? No more thn we can make my point of view I guess.

What we both can agree on seems to be the discussions. You say that your religion is also free from the rules of Jewish, Christain and Muslim beliefs. But how would they see it?

And also in you way to ponder questions is to be religious, but to others they ae exestantial without being religious. I think hehe that we are getting closer and closer to start defining what religion is and how to define it.. And oh yes, I missread you hehe. BUt you missread me as well.. Darn it, I would like to have this discussion over a cup of coffee somewhere LOL!
Though I have to disagree upon general nastiness here with your last point.
"To mix a body of truly concerned people in the common room of debates for everyone leads to thought control and no freedom only if certain members of the group seek to enforce their views -- what I've already called dogma. I would only encourage people to sit down together and talk, though, and not force them"

This is in my Humble opinion a bit close to Utopia, sorry, I would like that if there were a solution to it! But I can´t see it in any near future, my belief in mankind I guess is to pessimistic I´m afraid. But even so I like more and more the "picture" you paint up for me!!

[Black Dragon]

I've never actually told anyone this before but I really don't study any religion at all, never wanted to and still don't, I was supposively a christian, but I never go to church, don't pray, or nothing, I have no religion to beleive in, and like I said, I really don't want one, so plz don't take anything I just said offensive, its just I'm not religous. (Thats a major secret to me so, plz)

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Black Dragon:
I've never actually told anyone this before but I really don't study any religion at all, never wanted to and still don't, I was supposively a christian, but I never go to church, don't pray, or nothing, I have no religion to beleive in, and like I said, I really don't want one, so plz don't take anything I just said offensive, its just I'm not religous. (Thats a major secret to me so, plz)

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Black Dragon... no worries bro. You can believe or reject what you like. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It concerns me that you don't feel you can openly question the religion you are "supposedly" part of. Christianity to me is freedom. Doubts are something I relish as they are followed by a new level of understanding. Go on a search. Or don't. What you do is your own business and you shouldn't need to feel ashamed no matter what path you take.

Peace.