This Balduran Mess

[RevRuby]

Originally posted by Vedran: A weapon that a human would wield as a one-handed long sword, a halfling would wield as a two-handed sword. And humans 2h-sword would for halfling be ... I don't know, a flamberge?

according to PnP rules creatures can use weapons up one size category larger than themselves, 2-handed swords are size large, so gnomes, 1/2lings and some dwarves are banned from using them, this was probably too troublesome for the makers of the game, as well as ostracizing to those who would want to play gnomes or 1/2lings

[TaSSaDaR]

Apart from Tolkien, Dragonlance dwarf (the friend of Giltanas(spelling?) uhh... forgot his name!) was veery afraid of crossing a lake by a boat. And he mentioned that the fear of water is common among their clan. So, I doubt that someday a dwarf can become a pirate...

Of course, thats Forgotten Realms, not Dargonlance, but still..

[Morgeruat]

a dislike of water is common among dwarves (one reason they don't prize Pearls as much as they do other gems), but there is also nothing forcing them to avoid it.

[SixOfSpades]

Balduran was an unusual fellow, so why should we project the "usual" Dwarven hydrophobia on him?

I can see Dwarves & Halflings using Spears and Staves, for the simple reason that it's perfectly common to hold the weapon near the middle and attack with both ends. A 4-foot Dwarf should have no problems with a 6-foot Spear in this manner. (And if you want to use the "only-the-blunt-end" style, just grab a saw.)

2-Handed Swords, however, cannot be held in the middle (at least, not more than once), and so I won't allow my short folk to use them. I will permit the use of Bastard Swords and Katanas only when the user's high Strength (at least 16) would seem to justify it, and even then, they can't be Dual-wielded with anything larger than a Short Sword or Ninja-To.

The concept of short-folk using Longbows is ridiculous, but short-folk using Heavy Crossbows is not.

[Butterfingers]

I want to make something known.

I am a very short person, 5 foot 5 with shoes on. And I have used long bows larger then six foot long in the stave. ANY well trained short person can use a long bow. All you have to do is hold it to a slight tilt sideways. Hutch Gesperin, if anybody knows who he is, is one of the world's greatist trick shots and he is a real life dwarf, a Pitituary Dwarf. He stands about 4 foot tall and he uses long bows just fine. He holds his sideways however.

As for the spear issue, there are many types of spears. Short spears, lances, footman's lances, long spears, pikes, etc, it all depends on the size of the spear. Dwarves infact, do use pikes. Dwarven Pikemen are feared foes, highly trained, short, strong, and stocky.

As for Dwarves being hydrophobic, well, there ARE Sea Dwarves. They make magnificent floating fortresses and usually work with Sea Gnomes in spectacular sea battles with impressive machinery.

[Aeschylus]

I want to make something known.

I am of average height, about 5''8 without shoes. I've been throwing darts, shooting with bows, sparring unarmed, trained to a marginal extent with knives, sais, and the long staff for about 8 years now. I am by no means an authority, but I have seen some people who are.

I've seen many persons very good with a staff -some of them relatively short- but a short human != a dwarf. You can be _somewhat_ short and use a staff/sword/spear, but you cannot have stubby limbs and be fat and still use them. And Dwarves are, by all accounts, somewhat rotund (This is strictly fantasy dwarves- I'm not getting into the ugly issue of political correctness and weapon effectiveness). Even gripping the staff in the middle, their arms are just too short and stocky to pull off the kind of arm-hip whipchain motion you need to swing a staff effectively. I said I've seen short persons who use a staff. True. But they were all thin. And they weren't so short they couldn't swing it around. Even holding a staff as high up as possible, a Dwarf could not spin it perpendicular to the ground. And you must do that to fight. Otherwise you'll never get it around in time to hit or block anything.

Likewise, I've seen a number of kendo practioners. And the short, fat ones always lose. Maybe that is because the are out of shape, or perhaps that overhanging, Dwarfish belly makes such a tempting target for a shinai.

In any event, I just think Dwarfs are too short and too stubby to wield a sword or staff with the dexterity needed. I'm sure they'd do okay against an opponent who didn't move and didn't hit back and couldn't take any damage, but, well, so could anybody. Now an axe or warhammer, both, if you've seen them in say, museums, are very short weapons; no more than a couple of feet in length, esp. the hammers. But a good overhand swing can do a lot of damage (they're very top heavy). Plus, with such short length you don't need long arms to turn them to parry, stubby ones will suffice as long as you're strong. In short, Dwarves' classic weapons are classic for a reason.

As for spears.... Spears are long weapons. Period. Shortest spear I've ever seen was 6ft. And it was ceremonial. Longest was 15 (Phillip the great of Macedonia used these). Spears have to be long to poke at things (like horsies). And if they were really short, not only would you be unable to poke things but also they wouldn't fly well unless you have a launcher (at which point they become bolts or arrows). Or, if you really want to push it, darts. Darts are small and very heavy for their size; they can be thrown. Is that what you meant by "short spear", BF? A dart?

Point taken, however, about him not being an average dwarf. Very true. This may account for a lot of these things. Also, I see no reason a Dwarf can't use a bow. That should be ok.

I guess, in lieu of all the evidence, I'll have to go with Balduran the fighter-dwarf. ::sigh:: But he still needs some high lore...

[Butterfingers]

Look at the classic Roman Pilum, about 3 to 4 feet long, used for both throwing and melee, and works fine with a shield. That's a short spear. Commonly used one handed, and, fierce in combat with a skilled user. Or need I remind you of the Moors, who also used wickedly effective short spears, usually about 3 to 5 feet in length, also capable of ranged or melee. They hooked small bladders to the tips filled with poisonous dust that would poof into a cloud on impact. Woe betide you if you fell into a Moorish harpooner's target. They also used deadly darts and a wide variety of other weapons, but, that's beside the point.

Dwarves must be mighty stupid to not be able to make spears scaled down to their own size... Give them some credit people, Dwarves are the best weapon-smiths that have ever existed.

Short people using long staves are stupid short people. I have trained in martial arts my self and staves were sized to the user, even making them kid friendly. A simplified measurement for a combat stave is from ankle to armpit.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Butterfingers: I am a very short person, 5 foot 5 with shoes on. And I have used long bows larger then six foot long in the stave.

Butterfingers, no disrespect, but 3 inches shorter than the male average isn't "very short." (The girl I went out with in high school is 4'11" and has never weighed more than 90 pounds.) But if you want to talk about....

....a real life dwarf, a Pitituary Dwarf. He stands about 4 foot tall and he uses long bows just fine. He holds his sideways however.

....then I should point out that the difficulty in short people using Long Bows is not the angle at which the bow is held, but the length of the arms. A Human can draw a bow and get a pull of about 3 feet, if he hauls that sucker all the way back to the shoulder. A hypothetical Dwarf, using the same Bow and also drawing to the shoulder, would only get about 2 feet. Shorter pull = less powerful draw = shorter range and less damaging when it gets there. And that's if the Dwarf is able to hold the Bow perpendicular to the ground.

Aeschylus, while spears and assorted polearms do indeed come in a wide variety of sizes, short spears are by no means strictly ceremonial. The Vikings used 2 types for thrusting and throwing, and both sorts were about the height of the user. I have no problem whatsoever with the image of a Dwarven Viking, fighting with Spear & Shield. (I don't know if the Vikings used spear-throwers, though. And is the term "atlatl" native to any specific part of the world?"

But you do seem to have a point on your "short & stocky" issue. Long limbs do indeed grant a higher top speed and can impart a great deal of leverage to a comparatively light weapon....but then again, shorter limbs give better acceleration and can put more leverage onto heavy weapons. Still, for this reason, long limbs would definitely be better, since most Staves are rather on the lightweight side (unless they're made of things like solid rattan, etc.)

[Whailor]

I have always seen Balduran as a human. Can't show any "proofs", but from the stories comes the 'feeling'. Other then that,his class maybe wasn't indeed a 'pure' warrior (or fighter, whatever). He may have been very well some pirate class, swashbuckler or such. Good in melee combat, knows roguish stuff, has a knack in lore and so on... All points more towards the fighter type pirate. And if he was a "high level" pirate, he could also have the higher level rogueish skills like Use Any Item and all the scroll scribing and so on related skills, giving him access to lower level magery as well. Charismatic leader as well, as careful and sneaky rogues tend to be more charismatic then some burly fighters anyway. Charisma comes as a needed thing in this business line [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Butterfingers]

Balduran is a Dwarf.... It can not be made any plainer... Look at his helm for crying out loud. Also, there is the fact that it mentions that Balduran is a Dwarf...

How is this such a hard concept to figure out? He's not human, not a Swashbuckler, He was never a dual class, he was a Dwarven fighter. Period.


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