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Old 10-23-2001, 10:47 AM   #11
DragonMage
20th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: September 6, 2001
Location: The lighter side of life, a.k.a. Newnan, Georgia
Age: 55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sazerac:
Notice that the words they leave in denigrate women in particular, whereas the ones they take out (at least that you mention) are generic epithets...

What kind of message does THAT send?
Well, I guess as long as adults with the minds of juvenile delinquint males continue to be 'in charge' of what is produced, whether it is movies or music, this will continue. I, personally, refuse to buy or see or even listen on the radio or watch on tv something so blatantly offensive and biased. It worries me as a female in today's society that people listen to this kind of drivel (no offense to those who like drivel ) may develop a 'blah' or even a negative attitude towards women as a result - without even realizing where it came from. Desensitization to violence, etc. is a big problem in our society these days.

And Drake: I've nothing against a person who swears, it's just that the words invoke a particular feeling. The difference in your two sentences is that the first one gives a sense of anger. Not only that, but there are so many OTHER words you could use to add emphasis to that sentence without using a curse word. I have developed an enormous vocabulary and LOVE to use it, but rarely do I swear. It's too easy.

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Old 10-23-2001, 10:58 AM   #12
Drake
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: ?
Age: 40
Posts: 729
Quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
Drake, the one is based on meaningless addition of an inappropriate word to the communication. The other is a completley appropriate sentence. You see that word tossed into people's speech all the time these days and it is either a fill word or replaces something that might be more interesting and would certainly show more grasp of the language. Frankly, I tend to agree with DM, it doesn't sound excessively intelligent to me when I hear a kid saying things like "F***! I f*ing loved the f*ing concert!" I just sounds like they were too lazy to think of useful vocabulary! It's so overused these days that even the 'colorful or 'shock' value seem to be faded.

Cloudy

"meaningless addition of an inappropriate word to the communication" so was ain't but last time I heard it was added to the english dictionary as a used word for are not. Anyway that wasn't my point. what I can't figure out is why "sware words" are sware words. I mean yeah they are known for being "inappropriate" but why? why are those words considered inappropriate and not others?

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Old 10-23-2001, 11:51 AM   #13
Mitro Jellywadder
Quintesson
 

Join Date: September 5, 2001
Location: Florida
Age: 52
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake:
I personaly don't get the whole problem with sware words. There just words and have no effect on anything unless you let them have an effect. take these two sentences "I ■■■■■■■ don't like that" and "I realy don't like that" they both get the message through that something is not liked by the person talking. it's like a damn(as in a water stopper) and damn(as in the sware word) the same word just with two diferent meanings. so why is one bad and the other not? it realy doesn't matter.

maybe it's just me but that's the way I see things.

The use of most swear words are used in anger. It's annoying
to sit and listen to people talk and every third word is a
swear word.


Dam and damn are two different words. Fly and fly are the
same word with two different meanings. Any adult has the
right to express themselves any way they want to. Children
do not, nor do should they be subjected to it. That was the
point I was trying to make in my original post.

[This message has been edited by Mitro Jellywadder (edited 10-23-2001).]
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Old 10-23-2001, 11:55 AM   #14
Mitro Jellywadder
Quintesson
 

Join Date: September 5, 2001
Location: Florida
Age: 52
Posts: 1,016
Quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

And like you I like some of today's music. Even some of the distastful stuff, but I'm 35, and he's 13. He won't understand until he has the same argument with his son.

Remember when you were a teenager, and you thought your parents were "crazy"? They said stuff like, "one day your kids will blah, blah, blah and THEN you'll understand." Man, I hate it when someone else is right and I was wrong...lol!



My mom always told me, "I hope your son grows up to be just
like you!" I always laughed then. I stopped laughing a couple
of years ago.. At least the principle's a nice guy.

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Old 10-23-2001, 12:01 PM   #15
Melusine
Dracolisk
 

Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 6,541
Quote:
Originally posted by Drake:
"meaningless addition of an inappropriate word to the communication" so was ain't but last time I heard it was added to the english dictionary as a used word for are not. Anyway that wasn't my point. what I can't figure out is why "sware words" are sware words. I mean yeah they are known for being "inappropriate" but why? why are those words considered inappropriate and not others?

don't get too philosophical - this quibbling on the actual meanings of words will get you nowhere in this case. Besides, I would say that they do have actual meanings, and offensive ones at that. (this is not to say that I never swear, but I do KNOW that they are inappropriate to use and there are a number of situations which I can think of in which I wouldn't swear.) Now, as for your question, these words are considered inappropriate because of what they denote. If you call your grandmother a fuckin bitch, it is most definitely inappropriate (and that's an understatement!!), because these words DO have meaning! Now, if you use 'fuckin' in a 'meaningless' way, as in 'that was fuckin great!' (I'd argue it is not meaningless, as it's an adjective to fortify the word great, but I can see that by meaningless you mean one could just as easily use a non-swearword like 'really'), it still has the same connotations as it does in the first example. Is that so hard to understand?
Oh, and as far as I know, 'ain't' is not meaningless, it is a verbform that means the same as 'am not'. What you mean is that it's grammatically incorrect, but hey, take a look around on the Internet - what isn't?

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High Queen of Fluffies,
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[This message has been edited by Melusine (edited 10-23-2001).]
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Old 10-23-2001, 12:22 PM   #16
MagiK
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I believe a society is only as good as its language skills can allow it to be. It is arguable that it was the development of an organized language that raised man above the level of the beasts. Swearing may or may not be appropriate (I argue that it is perfectly acceptable in certain settings) but in general swearing in a public forum or arena is only used by those who are too lazy to structure a reasonably intelligent comment. One of the greats from literature not sure if it was Twain or not, had a really great quote about swearing. Wish I could remember the whole thing, but the message was that any idiot can swear, but it takes a true artist to swear with style and panache. And boy am I glad that some one finally commented on the fact that DAM and DAMN are two different words. VOCABULARY get one....use it. They are great!!!!!!!

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[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 10-23-2001).]
 
Old 10-23-2001, 12:33 PM   #17
MagiK
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Posts: n/a
To be a picker of nits....we are useing the word "swear" incorrectly here.
I believe the true definition of swear is to affirm or attest to some thing. Usually swear is used in attesting to the veracity of a claim or statement.
What we are really talking about here is vulgarity and slang. Most of the common "swear" words used today are not biblicly prohibited. The "swear" words are just social faux pas' The only "true" "swear" words that can reasonably be considered sinful are those that take the "Lords" name in vain. This would include Damn, G**Damn, Jesus!, Christ! and Jesus Christ!. (note the invocation of the !) while words like ■■■■, shit and any number of references to genitalia
did not even exist as such when the bible was being written. (yes they had other words for that stuff but not the ones we use today)

Having spent over 10 years in the military I have been able to observe some mighty fine traditions, amoung which creative vulgarity was one. Of course now that the armed forces are for the most part co-ed these traditions will change, because despite what people say, women will always be treated differently from the men...unless the military evolves into Robert A. Heinleins vision of the Military in "StarShip Troopers" the movie version.....co-ed showers....what a concept

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.
 
Old 10-23-2001, 12:39 PM   #18
Sir Kenyth
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: August 30, 2001
Location: somewhere
Age: 54
Posts: 1,785
I think that parenting and example far outweigh song lyrics when it comes to how kids learn to behave. I cut cussing out of my diet some years back. My son doesn't seem to have a problem eith it. I'll occasionally hear something that sounds like s#!t muttered under his breath when something goes wrong for him. He is, like other 10 year olds, fascinated with songs that use lots of cuss words. I just don't make a big deal of it and the fascination passes. It's a peer group thing. I remeber well enough when I was that young and everyone loved the song "Big Balls" by AC/DC. My parents didn't really allow me to listen to anything but radio, until I was in HS. I don't want to impose too many restrictions on my son. From my own experience, too much sheltering stunts a childs social development and leads to it's own problems later on. Now if I can just figure out how to make him do better in reading and spelling!

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Old 10-23-2001, 12:41 PM   #19
Melusine
Dracolisk
 

Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Age: 43
Posts: 6,541
Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

while words like ■■■■, shit and any number of references to genitalia
did not even exist as such when the bible was being written. (yes they had other words for that stuff but not the ones we use today)
I'm not surprised, given the fact that the Bible wasn't written in English



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High Queen of Fluffies,
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LH, HADB and ORT!

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Old 10-23-2001, 12:55 PM   #20
Hiram Sedai
Emerald Dragon
 

Join Date: October 8, 2001
Location: Georgia
Age: 54
Posts: 918
Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Having spent over 10 years in the military I have been able to observe some mighty fine traditions, amoung which creative vulgarity was one. Of course now that the armed forces are for the most part co-ed these traditions will change, because despite what people say, women will always be treated differently from the men...unless the military evolves into Robert A. Heinleins vision of the Military in "StarShip Troopers" the movie version.....co-ed showers....what a concept

While I was in the U.S. Army for 8 years, I had the pleasure of being a part of a co-ed unit. It was a Forward Support Battalion (HHD 324 FSB, 24th ID (MECH). I know what you mean about modifying the cursing so that the females don't get offended. The females did not modify theirs though. It wasn't really a source of consternation as much as one of humor. I confess that I struggle to not use expletives when I'm angry. Both my background in Philadelphia and my time in the Army gave me plenty of verbal ammo when I get angry. But, I found it much more satisfying to use the 10 cent words when insulting.

I won't comment on the moral fiber of children and the language they use. I'm not a parent and don't feel qualified to speak knowledgeably on that subject.



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"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Robert McCloskey



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