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Old 05-29-2002, 10:59 AM   #21
Azred
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Join Date: March 13, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by the new JR Jansen:
Anyway, the question i always ask myself is this. How many innocents are you willing to put to death ? I mean, if murderers don't get convicted, and it happened, then it stands to reason that innocent people will get convicted simply on the basis that they couldn't afford a good enough lawyer. This guy might have done a crime, i don't know the full story therefor i say might, but does the exucution of 1, or 1 million for that matter, criminals justify the execution of 1 innocent ?
Secondly, was he a threat ? I mean, i can see some justification in putting an end to a psychopat because if you release him, he's probably going to do it again. But was this guy really a threat. It seems that, from what i read, the eye for an eye comment is mostly used and you guys jump on frying somebody, even if he isn't a threat anymore. I do agree that this is somewhat hard to prove.
And saying that president Bush, and i use that term losely, didn't see any reason to overturn the death penalty is almost saying that the pope is Catholic.
I cannot disagree that miscarriages of justice occur; unfortunately they are part of life. However, could we let 1 murderer go free to save 1 innocent? How many might the murderer kill?
Was he a threat? He was a convicted murderer, thus I feel he was a threat. Others might feel differently, to which I must ask, "How do you know he is not a threat anymore?"


Quote:
Originally posted by LennonCook:
The way I see this is that you should not be able to murder ANYONE; minor or adult, criminal or innocent, man or woman...
The death penalty breaks one simple rule which we learn at 5 or 6-

TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT!!
No one murdered anyone here, except Mr. Beazley's murder of Mr. Luttig. This was an execution, not a murder. True, someone died, but the connotations are completely different.
I agree that two wrongs do not make a right--I teach that to my own son--but there must also be consequences for one's actions; in this case, the State decreed that the consequence was death by injection.


Quote:
Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
Very well said Lennon. It is a bit dodgy for a society to say basically - "All life is sacred, so because this man took a life that was sacred we can take his life.". Either no one should kill or it is ok to kill. Make your mind up.
I personally just have a problem with anyone thinking they have the right to kill another person under any circumstances. I don't care how many people voted for them they shouldn't have the power of life and death in my view.
Even if individuals do not have the right to kill others (and certainly we do not), society must have that right. A society, a nation, is like the human body--your body has the "right" to rid itself of infection; so, too, must society have the right to remove that which would destroy it. If not, the society would die.
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:14 AM   #22
Arnabas
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My thought has always been this: I think that those sentenced to death should be used for the testing of new drugs/ products. We kill and abuse countless innocent animals to test drugs before they are made available to the public. What better way to test something for use on humans, than to test it ON a human?
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:22 AM   #23
Neb
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnabas:
My thought has always been this: I think that those sentenced to death should be used for the testing of new drugs/ products. We kill and abuse countless innocent animals to test drugs before they are made available to the public. What better way to test something for use on humans, than to test it ON a human?
I like this idea. I like it a lot....

How about we also kill them in a way that damages their body very little, like a bullet to the head or a cut throat, and then donate their bodies to medical science and their organs to whatever people might be in need of a transplant? I like that idea too.
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:23 AM   #24
johnny
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnabas:
My thought has always been this: I think that those sentenced to death should be used for the testing of new drugs/ products. We kill and abuse countless innocent animals to test drugs before they are made available to the public. What better way to test something for use on humans, than to test it ON a human?
hmmm, that's not such a bad idea.
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:26 AM   #25
johnny
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Quote:
Originally posted by the new JR Jansen:
And then they call the US a civilized country, shees.

Anyway, the question i always ask myself is this. How many innocents are you willing to put to death ? I mean, if murderers don't get convicted, and it happened, then it stands to reason that innocent people will get convicted simply on the basis that they couldn't afford a good enough lawyer. This guy might have done a crime, i don't know the full story therefor i say might, but does the exucution of 1, or 1 million for that matter, criminals justify the execution of 1 innocent ?
Secondly, was he a threat ? I mean, i can see some justification in putting an end to a psychopat because if you release him, he's probably going to do it again. But was this guy really a threat. It seems that, from what i read, the eye for an eye comment is mostly used and you guys jump on frying somebody, even if he isn't a threat anymore. I do agree that this is somewhat hard to prove.
And saying that president Bush, and i use that term losely, didn't see any reason to overturn the death penalty is almost saying that the pope is Catholic.
was he a threat ? Why don't you ask that question to the familymembers of the person he killed ?
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:48 AM   #26
johnny
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i agree with azred. Some criminals don't deserve to live or get a second chance. For instance that ted bundy guy, i like to compare him with a tumor, if a person has a tumor he goes the the hospital and has it removed or cut out of his body, nobody wants to live with a thing like that.
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:36 PM   #27
Alexander
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Join Date: April 16, 2002
Location: Connecticut
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Posts: 259
Quote:
Originally posted by MILAMBER:
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander:
If we're going to treat people like this like 18-year olds, why not give them the right to vote, smoke, drink, enlist, whatever? The whole reason we make people wait for all that stuff is because 18 is the age at which people are considered responsible enough. Well, if we're going to treat kids like adults in the realm of punishment, surely we must give them the benefits adults have - and allow them to do the aforementioned things.
Your whole defense for him keeping his life is based upon his ability to smoke?

Say he could smoke, drink, and buy guns. Would he then be more guilty of his crime? Would he then deserve to die?

I'm afraid you're not making much sense.
[/QUOTE]I am making infinite sense - 18 is when you are considered responsible enough to make decisions for yourself - which is why everyone under 18 is not allowed to buy cigarettes, vote, gamble, etc, etc.

Yet this person was tried and convicted as though he committed the crime at 18. Tried as an adult.

So, we can convict him and execute him as if he were 18 years old, however he was still, at 17, unable to receive any of the benefits 18 year olds get - simply because he wasn't considered responsible enough.

So, if all of a sudden we're going to pretend kids are adults and execute now, then we must give them the benefits adults have - it can't work both ways.
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:49 PM   #28
Alexander
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Quote:
I cannot disagree that miscarriages of justice occur; unfortunately they are part of life. However, could we let 1 murderer go free to save 1 innocent? How many might the murderer kill?
Was he a threat? He was a convicted murderer, thus I feel he was a threat. Others might feel differently, to which I must ask, "How do you know he is not a threat anymore?"
I hope you retain the same conviction when a loved one is pumped full of lethal drugs due to a crime he or she didn't commit.

Quote:
No one murdered anyone here, except Mr. Beazley's murder of Mr. Luttig. This was an execution, not a murder. True, someone died, but the connotations are completely different.
Not really, you're killing someone who isn't a threat to you. If it were self-defense I would have no problem with it, but the man was already locked up and the key was thrown away. Since he didn't even try to escape in all this time, I doubt he was going to if he had to sit in that cell for 70 years.

The death penalty is pure murder - the only difference is that it is state-sponsored. If we kill people for killing people to show that killing people is wrong, we become complete and utter hypocrites and we lose any moral authority.

Quote:
I agree that two wrongs do not make a right--I teach that to my own son--but there must also be consequences for one's actions; in this case, the State decreed that the consequence was death by injection.
Why do you even bother teaching it to your son? You obviously don't believe it. The consequence could have been life in prison without parole, but no, they had to go one step further and kill him, which is obviously unnecessary and just a way of getting revenge.

Quote:
Even if individuals do not have the right to kill others (and certainly we do not), society must have that right. A society, a nation, is like the human body--your body has the "right" to rid itself of infection; so, too, must society have the right to remove that which would destroy it. If not, the society would die.
That is a ridiculous argument - just take a look at our European friends (and pretty much any civilized country other than the USA) for proof that society lives just fine without the death penalty.

So, society has the right, based on planted evidence or whatever, to arrest you, convict you, and execute you for a crime you didn't commit, and then after you're dead and they find that they were wrong, they can just turn to your family members and say "oops, sorry"?
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:52 PM   #29
Alexander
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Join Date: April 16, 2002
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To all you wonderfully civilized people who want executions immediately after the person is convicted - the waiting period is so that evidence and suchlike can be reviewed, so we can make damn sure that the offender was guilty. Granted, we probably still kill a few innocents, but it's a lot fewer than would be killed under your system.

If in the near future your system is implemented, and a loved one is executed immediately after the trial (even though they were innocent), and you can stick to your guns and still support your stance, come talk to me then.
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Old 05-29-2002, 01:03 PM   #30
RudeDawg
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Join Date: April 9, 2001
Location: Dallas, Tx, USA
Age: 54
Posts: 2,830
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander:
To all you wonderfully civilized people who want executions immediately after the person is convicted - the waiting period is so that evidence and suchlike can be reviewed, so we can make damn sure that the offender was guilty. Granted, we probably still kill a few innocents, but it's a lot fewer than would be killed under your system.

If in the near future your system is implemented, and a loved one is executed immediately after the trial (even though they were innocent), and you can stick to your guns and still support your stance, come talk to me then.
And to YOU, wonderfully inexperienced one... when YOU have a loved one murdered and the murderer set free because of your beliefs, come talk to ME then.
I have had 1 family member, and 2 wonderful friends murdered. One young lady was stabbed to death by her husband, with multiple stab wounds in her BACK. But because of people like YOU, he was set free. He went to her families home, and shot her brother, before being gunned-down.
People like YOU are responsible for his death.
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