The RIAA sees the face of evil, and it's a 12-year-old girl...

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Yes, there is an initiative called ECHO that would bring special kiosks to retail locations where a person could download MP3s into a palyer or possibly even burn there own mix CD right there in the store. Many major retailiers have joined forces behind this initiative, but so far nothing has materialized beyond a bunch of talk. I have heard of other similiar projects in the test market phase but I have yet to see anything viable. I get the feeling the industry wants to grow up with the times, but is having a shaky time doing it. Old habits are hard to break I guess...

Cool! I'll google some on that. That would be awesome. At first available in stores and then at home. Apple (I think it's Apple) has had that service for years. Pay to download a song. They have a huge number of visitors who rather pay for their downloads than steel the songs. It wouldn't be hard to make such a thing, they could even buy Kazaa. [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]

IMO launching their own file sharing network with fees for downloads would break all records when it comes to selling music. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

RevRuby, if you buy a CD, you have bought a COPY of the copyrighted works and the right to have copies of the works (as many as you want) for your own use and for no economic gain. Theoretically, if you sell your CD, you should trash/include all of your copies, because you have sold your right to own a copy. So, the guy who buys a CD, burns it to his hard drive, then sells the CD at a used store has stolen -- and has usurped the artist/industry from gaining the profits of someone else (the guy who buys your used CD).

An interesting aside: used PC games. I've seen them in stores. When you buy a PC game, you buy a license -- which is a right to use the thing (which increasingly means install 1 copy only -- NWN is an example), not copy it. Under the license you can usually make backup copies (only), but unlike copyrighted works, licensed works are generally non-transferable. You can't sell your license (as provided in EULA's I've seen). So, unless the EULA provides otherwise, you should not be able to buy/sell used game CDs AT ALL.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by WillowIX: Chewie, did you ever look into the possibility of selling your music as mp3s instead of on CDs? [img]smile.gif[/img] Do you know if anyone has looked into it?

Yes, there is an initiative called ECHO that would bring special kiosks to retail locations where a person could download MP3s into a palyer or possibly even burn there own mix CD right there in the store. Many major retailiers have joined forces behind this initiative, but so far nothing has materialized beyond a bunch of talk. I have heard of other similiar projects in the test market phase but I have yet to see anything viable.

I get the feeling the industry wants to grow up with the times, but is having a shaky time doing it. Old habits are hard to break I guess... [/QUOTE]I remember back in the 80's there were kiosks were you could do this to tape. I made a couple of special mixes at them for friends as gifts. IIRC the songs cost between 50 cents to about 2 bucks.

[Gnarf]

Aside from the fact that scanning the cash would be counterfeiting, and scanning and printing the car would be industrial espionage, as generally practiced, I don't see where the "good for you" logically flows. Are you condoning theft at this point by saying that since nothing is physically taken from you and you still have possession of the item, it's okay?

That sounds reasonable, yes, if you've lost nothing, you've lost nothing, I don't care if you suspect your neighbour for having built a replica of your car, I don't care if someone has a copy of a song you've made. If folks buy your music, great, if they don't, you should think of a way to make'em buy it or find another way to make a living, not make sure they don't listen to your music.

Seems to me that identity theft leaves you in possession of your identity, so good for you and the identity thief?

Sure, if I'll never run into any kind'a problems because of someone else using my identity, then I don't give a sh**, take it.

[Timber Loftis]

I don't think it's been mentioned, but I think RIAA (or some associated entity) has a website where you can download songs for $1 each. The attorney I know who works with RIAA told me about it.

[Bungleau]

Originally posted by Gnarf: quote: Aside from the fact that scanning the cash would be counterfeiting, and scanning and printing the car would be industrial espionage, as generally practiced, I don't see where the "good for you" logically flows. Are you condoning theft at this point by saying that since nothing is physically taken from you and you still have possession of the item, it's okay?

That sounds reasonable, yes, if you've lost nothing, you've lost nothing, I don't care if you suspect your neighbour for having built a replica of your car, I don't care if someone has a copy of a song you've made. If folks buy your music, great, if they don't, you should think of a way to make'em buy it or find another way to make a living, not make sure they don't listen to your music.
[/QUOTE]Let me flip it around differently. You work on a term paper for months. Someone accesses your computer, sees it, copies it, and turns it in as their own. To the same teacher, for the same class. Still no problem? After all, you have the original work, don't you? All they did was make a copy.

quote: Seems to me that identity theft leaves you in possession of your identity, so good for you and the identity thief?

Sure, if I'll never run into any kind'a problems because of someone else using my identity, then I don't give a sh**, take it. [/QUOTE]Do you understand what happens with identity theft? The thief takes your ID information and uses it. We're not talking about generating a fake ID so they can buy alcohol -- we're talking about a whole lot of transactions, from opening credit card accounts to buying massive amounts of merchandise to buying and selling cars... the list goes on. Since it's your ID, you get stuck with the bills (and the credit record) until you can prove that it wasn't you. And even then, you're stuck having to prove that for a number of years afterwards. Every time you try to do something where your credit history comes into play, you get to rehash the old "my identity was stolen, I'm really me" discussion. And you still won't be trusted.

I'm back to a basic premise that I think underlies this: If you've created something, you care a whole lot more about this than if you haven't. If you haven't created something, you don't see where the difference matters all that much.

As a side note, I think it was the developers of Bard's Tale II who said they knew they were a real success when the number of hint books sold was greater than the number of games sold... think about it... and think about why so many games these days come from manufacturers going out of business, or are forced out before they're completely proven and tested.

[Gnarf]

Let me flip it around differently. You work on a term paper for months. Someone accesses your computer, sees it, copies it, and turns it in as their own. To the same teacher, for the same class. Still no problem? After all, you have the original work, don't you? All they did was make a copy.

...and turn it in... unless it's a problem to me, I don't care. If the teacher will freak out when I turn in my papers, then it's a problem, yes. Either way, that example compares better to selling pirated software, and I don't mind it if someone sues folks making money on pirating, I won't believe that I, as one of the guys I know of that buys themost music, or various minors fooling around with KaZaA, are great threats to music industry and should be sued for millions.

Do you understand what happens with identity theft? The thief takes your ID information and uses it. We're not talking about generating a fake ID so they can buy alcohol -- we're talking about a whole lot of transactions, from opening credit card accounts to buying massive amounts of merchandise to buying and selling cars... the list goes on. Since it's your ID, you get stuck with the bills (and the credit record) until you can prove that it wasn't you. And even then, you're stuck having to prove that for a number of years afterwards. Every time you try to do something where your credit history comes into play, you get to rehash the old "my identity was stolen, I'm really me" discussion. And you still won't be trusted.

You got me, I'm not really that educated in indentity theft. But I was replying to "Seems to me that identity theft leaves you in possession of your identity, so good for you and the identity thief?" and therefore, I don't care if anyone's claiming to be me, I'd be honoured, really, why would anyone possibly want to be me? If they'd get me into trouble, as in your example, they'd screw up my identity, again, it doesn't compare to sharing some mp3s, there aren't many artists loosing fans because of filesharers sharing screwed up versions of their songs.

But sure, I think you should buy music intead'a downloading, and I do that meself. But when someone chooses not to, then it's not such a bad thing if they listen to music, that will probably increase the chances for them to start buying music at some point, showing off with some damn rich pop stars whining 'bout how much money they loose decrease them oddsies.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Bungleau: BTW, I believe that somewhere in here is the dividing line between those who accept piracy and those who reject piracy. That line is whether or not you've created something that's being stolen. If you haven't, then you don't see what the big deal is. If you have, then you realize that every bit counts. I've written a technical book which has sold some $6,000 worth of copies. There may be pirated copies out there already; should I not worry about those, since I'm not getting hurt? If I tell you that every purchaser of the book is also a candidate for some additional services I can provide, or a software product I sell, then one stolen book, priced at $60, means the lost *opportunity* for more than $8,000 in revenue. One additional customer is worth more than all the money I've made from the book, and that's measuring the revenue. Measure the profits instead, and one additional customer is worth two to three times what I've made on all the books. Not exactly victimless, is it?

You know, I'm a creative guy, and I'm studying in computer programming. I also draw and write quite well, and hope to eventually publish some novels/comics, amongs other things.

I would not mind people putting my stuff up for download on the net. I would do it myself, but that would get me in trouble with my boss/publishers.

Instead of complaining about people getting my stuff for free, I'd try to give them incencive to buy it. As an example, every book could have a serial number allowing registration to a website about the book.

I'd rather reward buyers than punish people getting it for free. All I really care about is my credits. As long as people know I made the stuff I don't mind them sharing it. It's good publicity.

[Faceman]

the thin line many people choose to cross is the line between "listening" and "copying"
Unlike technical manuals, car specs, ... you don't use music for something most people conceive as personal gain. Simply to entertain yourself when you're at home. Have a bit of CCR in the background while reading a good book.
Now while it would be LEGAL to listen to it on the radio it is apparently ILLEGAL to copy it (via P2P, tape-sharing, radio-recording).
Now while it is LEGAL to read a book at a library it is ILLEGAL to copy it and take it home. It seems to me that you don't pay for the (copyrighted) content but rather for the CONVENIENCE to look at it whenever you want. This is what certain people (including me) don't get.

@radio recording: what exactly is the legal status on recording songs from the radio or movies from TV with your VCR. Would somebody who taped every episode of "Friends" get busted? And if not would it be legal to download from a webRadio station? And if so where's the difference to P2P except that they don't offer everything at once but one by one on a chosen playlist?

@scanning cars: If somebody had one of these glorious StarTrek replicators and started replicating CDs he'd probably be sued by the RIAA. What if he started replicating Ferraris? He'd probably be sued by Ferrari. What if he started replicating chocolate bars? Would he be sued by Nestle, Lindt or Unilever?

And more on the real side:
I like sandwiches. Really I do. Now assume I go to Subway(tm) every other day. And after I have developed a taste for the famous Subway Club I want to save some money because 6$/sandwich is a bit much for my wages. So I buy another Subway Club Sandwich and take it home. I carefully disassemble it and find out every ingredient. Now I go to the grocery store pack myself up and at home I make myself another sandwich. In fact I continue to make these sandwiches myself and only go to Subway when I happen to pass by with enough money in my wallet. How many of you would now call me a thief?

Why is this like MP3 sharing?
+ Because I deprive Subway of business they otherwise might have had although they would have never sold me three sandwiches a day.
+ Because Subway has created this recipe and I'm constantly using it for my personal gain without paying them for it
+ Because Subway has no additional cost for the sandwiches I make.
+ Because I can share the recipe I found with my friends and they can start making their own sandwiches too costing Subway even more business and I will maybe get some recipes from them and maybe even a "kewl dude" from them even if it's not via AIM.

[ 09-11-2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

[Bungleau]

Luvian,

Revenue from the sale of my book is part of what pays my mortgage. It's more than just getting credit for writing it. On one level, if I give it away, I don't have a place to stay.

There are forums I participate in where I do give my knowledge away for free; in fact, I've been told people have huge email folders of my responses to questions. Quite scary, frankly. My bosses know that I do this, and they like it. Why? It generates goodwill for the company, increases our name recognition, and makes sales easier, since people know of me and of us ahead of time.

Your boss/publisher would probably object to you giving it away if they were losing out on it. If they paid you to develop the programs, art, or materials, then those things probably belong to them. Check your employment contracts. My book was specifically developed on my own time so that I retain the ownership of it.

And providing a serial number? Copy the book or art, copy the serial number. Now you get to find a way to protect against theft that way. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm all for providing value. When I give presentations (and I give 15-20 a year), I always provide my slides and presentation material to attendees free of charge. I don't mind because if someone else gets my materials, they get about 15% of the message. The rest is in my own delivery and the other things that I say; it's more than just the copied powerpoints. I offer more value when they get the real thing.

With my book, I've provided the rest of the value. It contains the rest of the story, the other things that I say that aren't on the slides. Once someone has that, in a sense they don't need me any more. All my knowledge (on that topic) is in there. And in one sense, that's what they're buying.

I agree that the recording industry should find a way to provide more value, so that the value of a CD is more than just the songs and the plastic. Once they can find a way to do that, they'll enjoy boom times again.