Bush's Drain America First Plan - Alaska Redux

Originally posted by Rokenn: Here in the bay area I've seen $2.10 a gallon near my home, and $2.40 a gallon in San Francisco. But then we always seem to get smacked with the highest gas prices around [img]graemlins/madhell.gif[/img] You can thank Grey Davis and his administration for that.

[ 03-12-2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Night Stalker]

Magik

Unfortunatly, it is very difficult to be a startup in America, especially if you have a revolutionary idea. The Big Boys (in the case of the car industry ... Detroit) tend to buy the pattents and then bury them.

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Magik Unfortunatly, it is very difficult to be a startup in America, especially if you have a revolutionary idea. The Big Boys (in the case of the car industry ... Detroit) tend to buy the pattents and then bury them.

Umm Night Stalker, I would argue that if you cannot be a successful startup here in the USA you are doomed to failure in every nation on earth. If you cannot make a go of it here, you don't deserve to succeed. It isn't "easy" to succeed anywhere, but this is one of the places it is most easy to.

There are dozens if not hundreds of private companies working to make alternative fuels and energy sources cost effective...to date all have failed, but are getting closer. 20 years ago solar power was 20 times more expensive to produce than conventional means, now it is merely 4 to 8 times as expensive. I can't help it that those companies aren't making good enough progress to suit the enviro types, but Im pretty sure if you get government too involved and taxes involved, you will incur so much red tape and bureaucracy that you will end up slowing things down.

[Kaltia]

Just wanna take this opportunity to point out we'll use all our oil up within a century. If we, as a world, don't do something about it now, we are going to be screwed in interesting ways. THIS IS NOT JUST THE US I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE...MagiK...

Unfortunatly it takes a damn while to make fossil fuels (plus they cause acid rain). As MagiK pointed out, the US needs to start developing enviromental energy sources for the rest of the world to start. So far we haven't really got many alternatives but we need some.

EDITED to add second paragraph. MagiK, can I call you "M"?

[ 03-12-2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Kaltia ]

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: We are paying our highest prices EVER for gasoline right now at about $2.00 per gallon. What are prices from elsewhere? C'mon folks post 'em: let's compare.

$1.59 US per gallon at the local Racetrack (a discount fuel supply)

[Timber Loftis]

Gotta call you wrong on this one, MagiK. Hybrid cars are on the market: Ford, Honda, and others make them. And, they are roughly 20% more expensive.

Now, if gas were taxed appropriately, there would be incentive to buy these 20% more expensive cars, as the gas savings would spur the consumers. Then, there would be more such cars, the cars would get cheaper, etc., etc. The "status quo" is only preserved by BIG AUTO and BIG OIL because companies and people, as a whole, are slow to change. Why ruin a good thing, right?

Also, if the Gas Guzzler Tax was appropriately applied to SUVs like it is to large cars, AS PLAIN COMMON SENSE DICTATES, it would jack up the price on an Escalade by $4-5 Grand. Again, this is already the law (if not for a silly tax loophole) AND it would again increase demand for more fuel-efficient cars.

If you like your big SUVs, that's fine - proper market incentives would mean hybrid fuel SUVs would be soon to follow (hybrid cars, BTW, get a tax cut - but only for itemizers).

And, these taxes are FAIR. In fact, it is NOT FAIR to NOT impose these taxes. I am a proponent of full-cost accounting. When you use gas as your fuel rather than a gas/electric hybrid you are taking a PUBLIC GOOD, to wit CLEAN AIR. You don't own all the air, the public does. If you want to dirty it, that's fine, but it is perfectly appropriate to make you pay for the damage you cause.

Final Notes:
Mfgr's whined that CFC restrictions would drive them bankrupt - it didn't.

Shrimpers whined that requiring TEDs (Turtle Excluder Devices) on the nets would drive them bankrupt, and even blockaded harbors in protest - it didn't.

The Post Office whined that allowing anyone other than it to use fax machines would drive it bankrupt - it didn't.

Auto mfgr's whined that requiring seatbelts installed would bankrupt them - it didn't.

In so many instances, economic incentives are fair, just, and necessary to spur social changes that will not cost us much at all compared to their benefit.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Kaltia: Just wanna take this opportunity to point out we'll use all our oil up within a century. If we, as a world, don't do something about it now, we are going to be screwed in interesting ways. THIS IS NOT JUST THE US I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE...MagiK...

Kaltia, while I too fear oil shortages will occur by the end of this century, there is a large gap in the knowledge here. The extent of petroleum reserves are simply unknown, as is the extent to which our consumption will keep increasing. Right now, it's not just that the consumption is increasing, but that the RATE is increasing. Every year more people use more fuel in more things than they did the year before.

BTW, just so no one loses the forest for the trees here - petroleum is also a necessary component of many other products, including PLASTIC.

[Kaltia]

Unfortunatly, I know how petroleum is reproduced...fractional distillation for like, ten weeks running tends to melt the brain but at least it sticks
I'm more worried about the H2SO4 emmissions, or sulpur dioxide. That is one of the causes of acid rain. Acid rain kills trees, which in turn produce oxygen. Acid rain can collect as acid snow then melt into lakes, killing fish and water-plants.

I am very "green" minded. I was bought up that way. I hate the thought of our planet being hurt because nobody could be bothered to find out about any alternatives to fossil fuels, 'cause "they didn't know how much more there was."

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: Here in the bay area I've seen $2.10 a gallon near my home, and $2.40 a gallon in San Francisco. But then we always seem to get smacked with the highest gas prices around [img]graemlins/madhell.gif[/img] You can thank Grey Davis and his administration for that.

[/QUOTE]Odd, since under Republican govenors we always seem to have the highest gas prices around too. I guess that must have been Davis' fault as well. If he is that powerful we better all watch out!

[Epona]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: We are paying our highest prices EVER for gasoline right now at about $2.00 per gallon. What are prices from elsewhere? C'mon folks post 'em: let's compare.

Here in the bay area I've seen $2.10 a gallon near my home, and $2.40 a gallon in San Francisco. But then we always seem to get smacked with the highest gas prices around [img]graemlins/madhell.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I don't know what you lot are complaining about. Here in the UK (does quick conversion) a US gallon of petrol costs the equivalent of about $6.