Another new gamer - thoughts on party

[RedballUK]

Before I begin, I'm new to CRPG and web forums so please be patient.

Ok, I've had a read of several threads re party structure and realised that I'm back where I started - confused. Having just bought the game, I've spent what must be approaching 3 days (elapse time) trying to create MY perfect party. I'm fairly new to CRPG (completed about 3/4 of Baldur's Gate before wishing I had started with Fighter/Thief instead of Paladin and getting sidetracked). I have done some roleplaying in the distant past (e.g. DnD 1st and 2nd Ed, Warhammer, rolemaster). I knew where I was with stats, to hit roles, etc in 2nd Ed but a bit lost with 3rd Ed. I'm sure I'll get it, but not confident with how character stats wil turn out.

Now I know that everyone has there own preferences, but I'm curious as to how my idea goes down in general. I guess I'm an advocate of roleplaying vs power gaming but open to some tactical approaches (e.g. getting a few levels of fighter for weapon specialisation etc..). I dont really like the idea of min-maxing. Just doesnt sit right. I guess the perfect character is one that is developed to use their natural strengths without being unrealistic.

Anyway here is my current attempt:

Definates:

1. Halforc Barbarian(X)/Fighter(4) [20,16,16,4,10,8]
2. Human Wizard [8,18,12,18,12,8]]
3. Tiefling Rogue (Maybe fighter levels skills up) [12,20,10,18,10,8]

Not so sure:

4. Either ...
Aasimar Paladin(X)/Fighter(4) [16,10,12,8,14,20]
or
Human Paladin(X)/Fighter(4) [16,10,12,8,14,16]

5. Either ...
Aasimar Druid [10,14,14,10,20,12]
or
Wild Elf Druid [10,12,14,10,18,12]

6. Either ...
Drow Bard [10,18,10,14,8,20]
or
Human Bard [10,14,10,14,10,18]

Number 1 I'm totally happy with. 2 and 3 relatively so. Thought of Human Rogue and Tiefling Wizard which may be better as I might multi class the rogue and have no intention of doing that with the Wizard.

Number 5 is a toss up between pure roleplaying (ie the Wild Elf) or a power Druid. I chose Druid over Cleric out of curiosity and variation. Also depends on what I chose for number 4. Which also depends on what I chose for number 6.

I'm very curious to play a Drow and think they'd make a good Bard. There seems to be mixed opinions on Bards in general. Could have taken a Sorceror I suppose, but again curiosity won through. I think the Bard can help other specialist characters across the board (Missile, spells, thief skills, healing, ect..). This is my likely choice for the leader.

If however, I decide that the 2 experience level penalty is too much, then I could take the Aasimar Paladin for a leader (Does this make a Bard redundant? Go for Sorceror instead?).

I guess, I'm leaning toward the Aasimar Druid/Human Paladin/Drow Bard combo.

How would the party fare?
Am I going to miss out on some key items/skills/plots/etc...
Can you see any passengers in the group?
Is a Drow going to cause problems as a leader?
What about the racial experience level penalties? With 2 characters with 1lvl penalties and a 3rd with a 2 lvl penalty, is that going to hinder my progress?

Any other (relevant) thoughts welcome.

Redball

[Warhammer]

Originally posted by RedballUK: 1. Halforc Barbarian(X)/Fighter(4) [20,16,16,4,10,8] 2. Human Wizard [8,18,12,18,12,8]] 3. Tiefling Rogue (Maybe fighter levels skills up) [12,20,10,18,10,8] 4. Either ... Aasimar Paladin(X)/Fighter(4) [16,10,12,8,14,20] or Human Paladin(X)/Fighter(4) [16,10,12,8,14,16] 5. Either ... Aasimar Druid [10,14,14,10,20,12] or Wild Elf Druid [10,12,14,10,18,12] 6. Either ... Drow Bard [10,18,10,14,8,20] or Human Bard [10,14,10,14,10,18]

Welcome to the forum.

Off the bat I would say you're party composition is great as is, you can keep everything as is and do fine.

That being said do not worry about ECL, my favorite party is a 6-drow party, so go for your favorite ECL race without worrying about the level penality.

Just what I would do if this was my party:
Aasimar for both druid and Paladin

Drop the Drow bard and take a (drow ?) cleric instead. A druid instead of a cleric is ok but a cleric AND a druid is great.

If you intend to play through HoF with your party (going to level 30ish). Nr3 could be a Wizard with one or two levels of rogue instead of the opposite. Spells are very valuable in HoF. If you go for this option, 2 and 3 can specialize in different schools.

Hope it helps.

[RedballUK]

Thanks for the thoughts. Keep them coming....

I must admit, I was tempted to go with the Aasimar Druid and Aasimar Paladin combo, but I think I'm leaving the Paladin as Human. I seem to remember another thread concerning Aasimar vs Human Paladins and (before it degenerated into a p!##!~@ contest over a Paly/monk combo - which I agree is weird for us non-power-gamers) the Human Paly stood up to some close inspection. I think if I were going with the Paly as my leader, I'd go with the Aasimar, but I'm going to push on with the Drow Bard as leader.

I note the Cleric point. My intuition is screaming that a Cleric is going to be a lot more useful than a Bard! I guess I'm more curious than strategic on this one. There selection of spells is limited, but I was intrigued to see that Bard's get healing. Can anyone comment on how effective a Bard is in general? Planning on using as a true jack-of-all-trades leader type. Will do all talking, some pick-pocketing when I fancy it, missile support (second to Rogue) and magic support. How do they fare later on the game? As a Drow, could give him some Wizard levels to beef up magic later on without incurring XP penalty - Is it worth it?

I think I'm going with the Tiefling Wizard and Human Rogue. I dont plan on multi classing the wizard, so with the high Dex and Int etc, can focus on being Nuker-mage.

For the Rogue, he's going to be the sneaker-sniper type. Gone with Human because I dont know how his multi classing will end up later. This way I dont have to worry about any potential XP penalties. Anyway 18 DEX is pretty good!Like the idea of two-weapon combo, but not a priority. If thats the case, should he just pick up some Fighter levels to improve martial prowess or is there another benefit to taking Ranger levels? Is it better to spend extra feat toward ambidexterity OR 2-w-combo rather than dedicating a level to Ranger just to get this? Do Rogues really become diluted once they hit 10th level? I hope not, they are typically my favourite class (I'm a rapier not a broadsword type).

Finally, how does the racial experience cap limits work in IWDII? Does it still go on race and class? Anywhere I can get a list?

[Gimli]

"I must admit, I was tempted to go with the Aasimar Druid and Aasimar Paladin combo, but I think I'm leaving the Paladin as Human. I seem to remember another thread concerning Aasimar vs Human Paladins and (before it degenerated into a p!##!~@ contest over a Paly/monk combo - which I agree is weird for us non-power-gamers) the Human Paly stood up to some close inspection."

Hehe, well as one of the p!553r5 from the thread you are talking about, I would agree Human pallys are fine - nothing wrong with Aasimars either though for a pure Pally, I would take your RP choice there. Just don't take a Pally(1)/Monk(X) with a 10 in Str and 20 in Cha =0) LOL!

"I note the Cleric point. My intuition is screaming that a Cleric is going to be a lot more useful than a Bard!"

Reasonable minds can disagree on this one; I personally don't like Bards too much, and I really like Clerics - they are amlost over powered in IWD II, and no one can heal like they do, period.

"Planning on using as a true jack-of-all-trades leader type. Will do all talking, some pick-pocketing when I fancy it, missile support (second to Rogue) and magic support."

Hmm, a pure rogue with a good INT can do all that by himself. They are actually the only class with all 3 talking skills as class skills; they get the most skill points of any class; and can even use some magic (scrolls/wands) if you build their "use magic device" skill.

"How do they fare later on the game? As a Drow, could give him some Wizard levels to beef up magic later on without incurring XP penalty - Is it worth it?"

Not really, you want to get access to higher level bard spells and songs if you go the bard route. I probably would not do a bard/wizard multi.

"I think I'm going with the Tiefling Wizard and Human Rogue. I dont plan on multi classing the wizard, so with the high Dex and Int etc, can focus on being Nuker-mage."

Tiefling Wizard is a great choice, the 20 Int to start is perfect; human rogue is nice too, the extra skill point per level comes in handy.

"For the Rogue, he's going to be the sneaker-sniper type. Gone with Human because I dont know how his multi classing will end up later. This way I dont have to worry about any potential XP penalties. Anyway 18 DEX is pretty good!Like the idea of two-weapon combo, but not a priority. If thats the case, should he just pick up some Fighter levels to improve martial prowess or is there another benefit to taking Ranger levels? Is it better to spend extra feat toward ambidexterity OR 2-w-combo rather than dedicating a level to Ranger just to get this? Do Rogues really become diluted once they hit 10th level? I hope not, they are typically my favourite class (I'm a rapier not a broadsword type)."

Well you'd need 2 fighter levels, or just one ranger level for the dualing - so there's less dilution with the ranger route. Plus the ranger has a bunch of the same skills as class skills that the rogue does. Basically you want 10 rogue levels when you hit 12th as some cool rogue feats are only available once you have achieved level 10 as a rogue. If you're going to use him to backstab, and as a leader, the skill points and sneak attack damage will be good for all levels. Some rogue skills don't really need to be maxed which is why alot of people would say pure rogues are overkill for thieving purposes, but they are still fun and effective.

"Finally, how does the racial experience cap limits work in IWDII? Does it still go on race and class? Anywhere I can get a list?"

No racial or class limits on levels or exp; the only thing you have to worry about is exppenalties if you multiclass.

[Zoltan]

Half/Orc or Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian
Human Cleric
Aasmir Paladin/Fighter
Human / Tiefling / Elven Rogue/Ranger
Human Wizard
and Human Bard [img]smile.gif[/img]

[RedballUK]

OK getting closer to a decision (may actually get around to playing this bloomin' game one day!):

1. Halforc Barbarian(X)/Fighter(4) [20,16,16,4 ,10,8 ]
2. Tiefling Wizard [8 ,18,12,20,12,8 ]
3. Human Rogue(10ish)/Ranger(1)/Fighter(?) [12,18,10,18,10,8 ]
4. Human Paladin(X)/Fighter(4) [16,10,12,8 ,14,16]
5. Aasimar Druid [10,14,14,10,20,12]
6. Drow Bard (Leader) [10,18,10,14,8 ,20]

Still not 100% about Drow Bard. Might go with Drow Sorceror instead. I know I should include a Cleric somewhere, but really fancy trying a Druid instead and I think i'd prefer either Bard or Sorceror for (6).

Not sure about how to progress the Rogue still. New rules confusing things a bit here (You'll have to forgive my slow uptake - bit senile). In order to specialise, need 4 lvls of Fighter. Best to take a lvl of Ranger for two-weap combo skills. Therefore how's the following:

2lvls of Rogue
1lvl of Ranger
2lvls of Rogue
4lvls of Fighter
finish off as Rogue.

I feel that I'm missing something here.
Remember, his priorities are:
1) Sneaking/Scouting
2) Super Sniper (Bow specialisation, Rapid shot, Envenom weapon, etc..)
3) Locks, Pick pockets, traps, etc
4) Backstabbing melee (using 2-w-combo, arterial strike, etc..)
5) Looking good and feeling good!

[Warhammer]

Originally posted by RedballUK: 2lvls of Rogue 1lvl of Ranger 2lvls of Rogue 4lvls of Fighter finish off as Rogue.

WARNING: If you do that your character will get an experience point penality when you hit level 3 of fighter and until the rest of his life.

The Rogue class is ignored since it is the tiefling favorite class, but the two remaining classe must be within' one level.

[RedballUK]

OK. I'm planning on taking a human Rogue now and not a Tiefling thinking that it gives me more flexibility over multiclassing later (as well as the extra skill points etc..).

Sorry if I'm not getting the painfully obvious, but am I right insaying that, even as a human, the 2nd and 3rd multi classes have to stay within 1 of eachother? Its only the primary (or highest levelled) class that is ignored?

So assuming my Rogues priorities requirements...
1) Sneaking/Scouting
2) Super Sniper (Bow specialisation, Rapid shot, Envenom weapon, etc..)
3) Locks, Pick pockets, traps, etc
4) Backstabbing melee (using 2-w-combo, arterial strike, etc..)
5) Looking good and feeling good!

...is it better to ....

a) 2lvls Rogue +1lvl Ranger + rest Rogue
b) 2lvls Rogue +4lvls Fighter + rest Rogue
c) 2lvls Rogue +3lvls Ranger + 4lvls Fighter + rest Rogue
d) Anne Other

Apart from the 2-weap-combo feats and closer match of skills, is there any other benefit to taking Ranger levels (i.e. Should I just take 1 or more lvls as Ranger?).

Am I right in saying that Rangers and Rogues (and generally everyone else bar Fighters), starting at 3rd level, get 1 feat every three levels. Fighters on the other hand get a bonus feat every 2 levels. So....

(the levels below represent combined levels)

2 lvls as Rogue = 2 @ 1st (+1 for being Human)
1 lvl of Fighter = 2 @ 3rd (1 for 3rd + 1 for 1st level in Fighter)
3 lvls of Fighter = 1 @ 5th (bonus Fighter) + 1 @ 6th
Total of 6 feats after 6 lvls.

2 lvls as Rogue = 2 @ 1st (+1 for being Human)
1 lvl of Ranger = 1 @ 3rd + Ambidexterity + 2-Weap-Fighting
3 lvls of Rogue = 1 @ 6th
Total of 4 feats after 6lvls (or 6 including the Ambidexterity + 2-Weap-Fighting).

Not much in it. If the 2-w-combo is important, I guess the single Ranger route is best. It also affords better use of skill points. However, I think if the super-sniper is a must, the 4 lvls in Fighter give the chance to pick up weapon specialisation in Bow.

I guess it boils down to being greedy, I want both 2-w-combo AND super-sniper! I think I'm beginning to sway toward the Ranger lvls as it dilutes the Rogue less. I can still make him a pretty good sniper. I can also add further Ranger and/or fighter levels later on once the Sneaker skills are honed.

[Warhammer]

Sorry if I'm not getting the painfully obvious, but am I right insaying that, even as a human, the 2nd and 3rd multi classes have to stay within 1 of eachother? Its only the primary (or highest levelled) class that is ignored?


Yes and yes. In the case of humans the favoured class (the one that does not count towards penalities) is their highest.



a) 2lvls Rogue +1lvl Ranger + rest Rogue
b) 2lvls Rogue +4lvls Fighter + rest Rogue
c) 2lvls Rogue +3lvls Ranger + 4lvls Fighter + rest Rogue


Either a) or b) if you go for c) he won't really be a rogue. I mean he will not get the cool level 10+ rogue stuff in a normal game.

Remeber that going for Ranger levels is not the only way to get the two feats, you can take 'em the regular way too.

I would go for b) the extra feats I get for the 4 levels of fighters going to Ambidext, 2-weapon fighting and bow.

[ 11-15-2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Warhammer ]

[Magness]

On the topic of rogues...

A pure class Rogue can be pretty decent in IWD2. They're not bad fighters.

I personally don't go for those overly multiclassed characters, i.e. more than 2 classes.

If you're looking for a rogue that has more melee punch without giving up too much, I think that the best Rogue multiclass is the Ranger/Rogue. I'm not talking about a Ranger 1, Rogue X just to get free dual-wielding. I'm talking about having a mix that either 50/50 or much closer to 50/50.