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Old 11-13-2002, 07:38 PM   #11
NobleNick
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Join Date: February 5, 2002
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
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Sir Goulum,

Yeah, mages just suck up expo at the start; but it doesn't take long for them to become useful. I have a gnome thief/Illusionist mc, "Sashii," who spent her time in the Prologue just trying to keep from getting killed. By the time the party got to the Vale, though, she was pulling her own weight. And, by the time we had hit the 2nd level of Dragon's Eye, I considered her indespensible: Would have let ANY other TWO characters go before giving her up; because virtually all my combat tactics revolved around her considerable capabilities as a mage.

As several posters have mentioned, dual-classing as fighter/mage or multi-classing as thief/mage lets you get a bit more out of your mage.

Going into battle with magic and melee skills is like cutting up a well-done, cheap cut of steak with a fork and butter knife: The job is often hard using both, but can sometimes be near impossible if only using one.

Party On!


[ 11-13-2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]
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Old 11-13-2002, 11:26 PM   #12
Sir Goulum
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Join Date: February 7, 2002
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So, your basically saying, keep them alive at the beginning and just let them level up to about 2 or 3? [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 11-14-2002, 12:17 AM   #13
NobleNick
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Sir Goulum,

Yes.

You will always need to keep "straight" [i.e., not dual classed (dc) nor multi-classed (mc) ] protected from heavy melee. However, a straight mage, though still a defensive liability, ought to start proving themselves useful by level 3; and, if a specialist, QUITE useful by level 5.

Now for some unsolicited advice: I have never, and will never, own a straight class nor general (unspecialized) mage (though Dundee Slaytern says I'll go general when I get to HoF mode).

First: Even if a straight mage is what you THINK you want, you should start him as a fighter and dual class (dc) him when he hits fighter 3 (levels 6, 7 or 9 are even better, if you have the patience). At level 3 he will have 42 hp (if CON=18); with missile weapons [img]graemlins/tgestar2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/tgestar2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/tgestar2.gif[/img] and melee [img]graemlins/tgestar3.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/tgestar3.gif[/img] (or vice versa). This will give you the equivalent of what you THINK you want (a "straight" mage), but with a healthy enough dose of hp that he can survive a few hits from an archer or a mis-placed fireball. The extra hp shores up the most frustrating weakness of the mage class, giving you more ability to take the chances necessary to use him aggressively. The extra proficiency points in missile weapons doesn't hurt, either.

Second: Whether it be a straight class, dual class or multi-class, I would specialize --> a specialist mage (Illusionist, Invoker, Necromancer, Conjuror, etc.) gets one extra spell at EACH SPELL LEVEL, as soon as that level is gained. The drawback is that your specialist cannot learn spells from oposition school(s); so pick your mage's specialty carefully, especially (and I wouldn't advise this) if you only have one solid magic user.

Dundee Slaytern and I dicussed this at length in another thread. Though we disagreed on several major points, we did agree on two things regarding specialists: An Illusionist is probably the best choice, and a Conjuror one of the worst, for a party with only one magic user.

One combo that I know works well is Illusionist and Bard; because the bard can learn the few useful necromancer spells that are off-limits to the Illusionist. Another combo that I HOPE will work well is: Thief/Illusionist mc, Fighter/Invoker dc, and Fighter/Conjuror dc. (The reason I don't KNOW it will work well is because I haven't DCed, yet! I intend to play HoW and TotLM additions; so am waiting till I get fighters in this party to level 13 before dc to mage.) Lots of magic coming to that last party. Yeah.

Oh! Forgot, Sir G., that you don't have HoW; so Bard is not a good choice for you. I would really recommend, in your case, having two complimentary schools of magic represented by specialist mages: say a gnome Thief/Illusionist mc and a Fighter/Mage dc; or maybe Thief/Illusionist mc and Cleric/Mage mc. (Where "Mage" means a specialist: Conjuror [O.K. if she's not the only mage]; Invoker; or Necromancer.) Whatever you do, make sure that your mages, together, cover every available school.

Party On!


[ 11-14-2002, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]
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Old 11-14-2002, 11:49 AM   #14
Roboghost
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If you go straight Mage from start (I do for game purposes), then go Mr. Elf. He/She has the charm resists and DEX of 19 (harder to hit and better at tossing rocks).
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Old 11-15-2002, 10:59 AM   #15
SirWillow
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As Nick says, dualing a mage from a fighter can be a big plus in the hp department as well as your mage having some actual fighting skills in a worst case scenario where they need them.

Without HoW though, I wouldn't wait til level 13 to dual. I would say no later than level 7 in your case so they can surpass their fighter level pretty quickly. Otherwise it will take them quite a while and you'll be a long ways into the game before you get your fighter skills back- not to mention having to play quite a while before you can dual.

I would also tend to disagree a bit with the specialization of mages to. Neither one of my two mages (plus a bard) are specialized. One is a multi-classed thief mage (elf), the other is a dualed fighter/ mage. Neither one of them is at a remote loss for spells, and I usually have more than I can cast. However they also each have a couple of items giving them extra spells.

But I found that not being able to cast certain spells because of the opposition groups really put a pinch on what I wanted my mages to be able to do. Balancing it with another specialized mage helps to counter that somewhat, but then you're pinched again when one of your mages is incapacitated (which happens often enough in the game due to various things), and that's not a risk I'm willing to take. Especially when I don't need to.

Some people love specialization, some people hate it. I'm more indifferent about it. But it's up to you to figure out what you like best.

But again, if you're wanting to keep your mage alive early, simply keep them away from the fighting. Far enough away to be free from harm but still able to cast or lob missles.
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Old 11-15-2002, 07:27 PM   #16
Lord Brass
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Join Date: September 17, 2001
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Specialisation is okay for games like BG, where the limited amount of XP available means that you have to be realtively circumspect with your mages. (I know that you can complete BG without a mage, but that isn't the point here.) IWD on the other hand, especially with the expansions, allows a mage to get to decent levels and the extra spell per level really isn't that big an advantage. Also, there are plenty of items that do more than boost level one spell memorisation, so don't worry.

[ 11-15-2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Lord Brass ]
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Old 11-15-2002, 07:29 PM   #17
Peytin of Rothmire
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If you really can't wait for that fighter to hit a sweet spot before dualing then go multi from the beginning. My own case in point:

Right after clearing the main level in lower dorns including the tower:

Rithian: gnome illusionist lev 11/ fighter lev 9 96HP **bow **l sword **hammer *missile(didn't know what else to choose at that point so we went for the darts!) Note she was in a party of four.

Then I imported her to a expansion only game of HOW/TOL. She is now illusionist lev 12/ fighter lev 12. I'm sorry but I can't recall her HP, however she gained much slower, as all characters do when they get to higher levels.

Yes you will level slower using a multi character but she was helped by being in a party of four instead of six. She's held her own in dorns. I also had a multi hafling thief lev 11/ fighter lev 9 116HP at the same spot in the game. As you can see, both are fine as far as HP goes. Rithian is used almost exclusively as a mage and secondly as a backup to the thief/fighter archer, but the extra HP helped when she did find herself in melee combat. I took her with me for my first journey into HOW. Frankly, the thief/fighter is okay for the extra HP but she looses her novelty after a while so I left her in dorns.
In retrospect(or rather in the future) I would have gone dual, as you can only put two prof points in any one weapon as a multi fighter.
But if you think you just won't have the patience to hold out that fighter to lev 7, 9, or 13(yikes!) then go multi! Or better yet, go multi with a mage/fighter(I would highly recommend gnome illusionist) and prep a fighter for dualing. This way you won't have a magic shortage in the beginning and could maybe hold that fighter out a little longer.

On a personal note Sir Goulum, after seeing your posts and your obvious enjoyment of the game, GO GET HOW!!!
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