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Old 12-16-2004, 12:14 PM   #1
Kaelas
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A couple of days ago I came upon an article dealing with possible election fraud accusations of Ohio's secretary of state. Since I'm not from the US but have an avid interest in what's going on around the world I've tried to keep track of this issue but have since failed to discover anything more on the subject. Now, I'd like to ask if any of you have some more insight into the matter.

Here's the link: http://newsclipautopsy.blogspot.com/...retary-of.html

And a short, but poignant, excerpt:

"Did you get that America ? The Secretary of State of Ohio, who has an obvious conflict of interest by being the State Chair for the reelection of George W. Bush, has now violated the law to stop a recount that could prove that Bush actually lost Ohio, and thus the entire presidential election. Where in the hell is the media? Where is the outrage? Why is this not the TOP story on every network? Why is this not the HEADLINE in every paper? Again, even if you think the fraud allegations will not amount to overturning the election, isn’t the potential of real voter fraud in this country worth reporting? When a man who is so obviously compromised and ethically bankrupt such as Blackwell actually VIOLATES THE LAW, isn’t that considered news? Is it not even more relevant when you consider the ONLY possible reason for Blackwell to illegally stop the recount is that he is afraid of the results?"

If anyone could shed some more light on what's going on over there, it would be much appreciated. Did that really NOT make it into the media?
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Old 12-16-2004, 01:00 PM   #2
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LOL Sour Grapes, all the recounts in ohio did were to reafirm that Bush won. Everyone gets to vote for who they want, and you cannot bar them from Jobs based on who they support in an election.....our whole country would come to a stop if that were the case.

Bush won in 2000 and he won in 2004 the electorate minority who lost need to get over it and MOVEON.ORG


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Old 12-16-2004, 04:37 PM   #3
Khazadman Risen
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There is no controversy. Even if Kerry somehow won all the disputed ballots (a statistical impossibility) Bush would still win. It's time for these people to get over it.
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:58 PM   #4
Chewbacca
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The central reasoning and goal behind the recount in Ohio is not to change the results of the Presidential election.

Take the loud big party rhetoric like:

"Kerry really won, the recount will prove it"
AND
"Bush won, four more years. Get over it."

out of the equation and what do we have left?

A 3rd party ( Green and Libertarian) driven initiative to expose problems with the voting system.

Nader requested a recount in New Hampshire for the same reasons.

I fully support the investigative recount efforts being led by the small candidates and thier parties. The Dems are on board, but where are the Republicans asking for accurate vote tallies and thorough oversite of the voting system? Just because we didn't have a Florida in 2004 doesn't mean the problems that existed then and before have simply disappeared. The recounts are bought and paid for by the candidates requesting them in Ohios case so it's not like a burden on States finances. Doing recounts seems like a wiser course than not doing them for accountability reasons alone.

Being against these kinds of election accountability efforts is a bit like being against one's own best interests which is a fair and transparent voting system.

[ 12-16-2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]
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Old 12-17-2004, 04:38 AM   #5
Cerek
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaelas:
A couple of days ago I came upon an article dealing with possible election fraud accusations of Ohio's secretary of state. Since I'm not from the US but have an avid interest in what's going on around the world I've tried to keep track of this issue but have since failed to discover anything more on the subject. Now, I'd like to ask if any of you have some more insight into the matter.

Here's the link: http://newsclipautopsy.blogspot.com/...retary-of.html

And a short, but poignant, excerpt:

"Did you get that America ? The Secretary of State of Ohio, who has an obvious conflict of interest by being the State Chair for the reelection of George W. Bush, has now violated the law to stop a recount that could prove that Bush actually lost Ohio, and thus the entire presidential election. Where in the hell is the media? Where is the outrage? Why is this not the TOP story on every network? Why is this not the HEADLINE in every paper? Again, even if you think the fraud allegations will not amount to overturning the election, isn’t the potential of real voter fraud in this country worth reporting? When a man who is so obviously compromised and ethically bankrupt such as Blackwell actually VIOLATES THE LAW, isn’t that considered news? Is it not even more relevant when you consider the ONLY possible reason for Blackwell to illegally stop the recount is that he is afraid of the results?"

If anyone could shed some more light on what's going on over there, it would be much appreciated. Did that really NOT make it into the media?
You're right, Kaelas, that is a poignant excerpt. It also points out a very obvious flaw in their own reasoning - and that is it's own outcry about "Where's the media?"

Believe me, if there was any NUGGET of a story here, the media WOULD be covering it and it would be making headlines - at least in some of the more prominent publications of our land. The fact that this ISN'T making national headlines means that it is basically a storm in a teacup.

So it is an OBVIOUS "conflict of interest" for the Secretary of State of Ohio to be the head of the Bush reelection committee in Ohio? Hmmmm, would it have been such an obvious conflict of interest if Kerry had won? What if the Secretary of State was the Chairman for Kerry's election committee and Kerry had won? Would we still be hearing the same cries for our voting system to be "investigated and fixed"? I somehow doubt it. Perhaps the Libertarians and Independents would STILL want to have recounts to investigate any allegations of "voter fraud" if Kerry had won. Then again, if Kerry had won, there wouldn't have been the plethora of allegations of voter fraud. Instead, it would be trumpeted as a TRIUMPH of our system DESPITE the minor flaws inherent in the process.
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:50 AM   #6
Kaelas
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That's what I was thinking Cerek. Had there been evidence of fraud it would have made it into the media, one way or the other. It would not quite fit my notion of an inquisitive reporter to not make a story out of it were it actually based on facts rather than opinions and suspicion.

It seems to me that 'truth' in the political landscape has become more and more a matter of opinion rather than actual fact. A pity.
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Old 12-19-2004, 12:42 AM   #7
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaelas:
Had there been evidence of fraud it would have made it into the media, one way or the other.
There is evidence of errors, (in Ohio and elsewhere both before and after the election) and it has been reported in the media.

I have not heard of any evidence of out-right fraud but the investigations are ongoing. I am optimistic our voting system will improve because of continual scrunity. I am not suprised there were errors, the laws even account for them. I am concerned that error could be caused by complacent self-interest.
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Old 12-20-2004, 06:36 PM   #8
Jonas Strider
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Kaelas ... you should check out what's happening over here in Washington state. We still don't have a governor due to legal issues with vote recounts. The race is VERY close.
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:24 AM   #9
MagiK
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I agree with Chewie, there are problems with the voting system. *DEEP BREATH* But, so far it is the best system devised and implemented by man to date for the sheer size and scope of the event.

We should improve the system, but I don't think we should dumb it down, I think if anything we need to make it just a bit harder so that only people who are informed and interested enough in the issues to vote....will. I see no advantage to dragging in every drunk, hobo, junkie, nutjob or apathetic bozo in to vote with bribes and force or scare tactics. I think it would improve our system and our government if there were competency tests...yeah yeah I know never gonna happen...

And for those who say "Hey I thought you were a Strict Constructionist and a Constitutionalist" I say...yeah I am...originally the founders only intended for Educated, Rich White guys to vote. While it makes sense to take race and sex out of the equation....I still think the educated portion should be in there.


[ 12-21-2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:31 AM   #10
wellard
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Now that Bush has won an election fair and square perhaps we can now have bi partisan support to fix the many embarrassing loopholes and problems with the US election system.

Previous to this years result any comment or action on the sad state of democracy in the USA was seen as a direct attack on Bush. Hopefully we can now move on (fingers crossed) because democracy is far more important than the transient detail of the currant victor or ebb and flow of the each of the two parties influence.
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