Satanism

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Arnabas: I actually thought about that, too. Satan isn't really evil, he's the "Loyal Opposition". [img]smile.gif[/img] If we didn't have a choice between good and evil, neither one would have value.

Sorry, not gonna buy that one!

Cerek! AWESOME post and thank you.. I'd trashed several posts after beginning to answer and finally gave up. Yours is just right.

[ 05-16-2002, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Arnabas]

There HAS to be evil. Think about it. Let's say that only good existed. There would be various degrees of good. The good at the low end of the spectrum would, by default, be the new evil.
Anyhow, just pointing out a thought I once had with the "loyal opposition" thing. Truth be told, I don't believe in Satan. I believe (obviously) that evil exists and believe in evil spirits, but the Satan of Christian mythology doesn't exist in my world view and philosophy.

[Lifetime]

Cerek, I'm actually very glad to have someone like yourself on these boards to explain the Christian faith the way that you have. Not that I'm selling Yorick, or Cloudbringer, or Moni or anyone else short for that matter. Its truly a good thing to have so many Christians able to express their views so eloquently and without hesitation. Thats getting a rarer and rarer thing in the increasingly secular world we live in, that Satanism could actually get by by hiding in a web of lies and evasive rethoric.

[K T Ong]

No problems, Cerek (and no hard feelings either ). I'm just indulging in what might perhaps be called a Jungian interpretation of Christian belief.

Still like to fantasize about you as one of those Christianised Vikings of yore -- thanks to your sig.

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Lifetime: Cerek, I'm actually very glad to have someone like yourself on these boards to explain the Christian faith the way that you have. Not that I'm selling Yorick, or Cloudbringer, or Moni or anyone else short for that matter. Its truly a good thing to have so many Christians able to express their views so eloquently and without hesitation. Thats getting a rarer and rarer thing in the increasingly secular world we live in, that Satanism could actually get by by hiding in a web of lies and evasive rethoric.

So what your practically saying is you think that everything I have said so far in this thread is "hiding in a web of lies and evasive rethoric"????

[Mouse]

Azzie - I don't think any remarks have been aimed at you personally. This has been an extremely interesting and well mannered debate so far. Let's not personalise the arguements and and have it descend into flamebaiting and/or direct insults.

[Rikard_OHF]

Originally posted by K T Ong: I seem to have read somewhere that according to some Christian mystics (was one of them named Origen or something?) even Satan himself will ultimately be saved. There is therefore no such thing as eternal damnation. Elsewhere I also seem to have read that Satan is actually in a way doing God's will: the temptations he offers to humanity are really 'tests' to promote your inner growth. After all, another name for Satan is Lucifer, which means 'Lightbringer' -- he brings to light your weaknesses by putting temptations in your way, thereby helping you grow. If all this is to be taken seriously, then it would seem to me that Satan is a good guy of sorts, after all! [img]smile.gif[/img] It's not unlike the Hindu god Shiva, who again appears to be evil at first sight but is actually good; he's a god of destruction, which at first seems evil -- the Ad&D rule books made him out to be evil! -- but he destroys in order to make room for new creation, and also because he treasures that which is indestructible. Only that which is lasting and indestructible has true value; if something is destructible at all, it is already valueless ipso facto. quote: I have no right to judge other people's religions becuase I don't even have my own religion to look up to. I don't like religion.

Our choice is actually never between religion and no religion, only between one religion and another. Atheism is a religion, too. And if you don't like religion, why do you post to this thread in the first place? Nobody's forcing you.[/QUOTE][christian dogma mode]
Actually KT
Satan is also called lucifer because he was one of the 3 archangels
the 3 being Lucifer Michael and Rephael
He evenually was cast out by god from heaven because he was not willing to accept serving mankind because he though that angels were the higher lifeform and thus humans should serve them
He is no longer called lucifer since after his exit from heaven he is no longer worthy of that name
[/christian dogma style]

What i just wonder is why would you call ur religeon satanism

[WOLFGIR]

Just wanted to make you all aware of Gnosticism, the first documented Western "philosophy" that actually started the satanism. A misunderstood thesis that was well, rather weird.

I have studied occultism for some years now, and it is with interest I follow your debate here.

Except to give you some little hint in this post I think I will stay out of it!

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: It does NOT mean that we stops sinning. We don't. We still sin against God every single day. But God is a wonderfully loving Creator. He knows our sins before we even commit them. All He asks is that we confess our sins to Him and ask forgiveness. He then forgives us of our sins and wipes the slate clean. Our previous sin is forgotten.

Cerek,

You know that I have a lot of respect for you as I have told you on occasions before. I love the way you strive for understanding, and the way you go about your evangelism (which is by never forcing the issue, speaking only of which is relevant).

As you also know, I do not believe in God, and hence Christianity as a whole. I do not intend to continually challenge you over your beliefs for the fun of it, I am genuinely interested in the concepts that we discuss, and wish only to understand better. I want you to know this so that you don’t think I’m just being argumentative.
If you would prefer me to ask questions in Private Messages instead of in public threads, just tell me. But I’m assuming that other people would like to hear what I have to say!

Anyway, my first question is as follows: You say that God is a wonderfully loving Creator, and that he knows our sins before we even commit them. It is Christian’s belief that we are of sinful nature, and that no-one is sinless. Doesn’t this mean that we are destined to sin? Therefore at birth, we are destined to go to hell, and throughout our life he watches us, to see if we will at some stage decide that we will become a Christian! If we do, we are forgiven for the sins that we are destined to commit. If we do not, we will go to Hell. Given that this is the case, you would think that God would give us a real choice. The way I see it (and correct me if I’m wrong), Christianity is about faith. Wouldn’t a “wonderfully loving Creator” make this eternity based decision a fairly straightforward decision? Wouldn’t he give us continual real evidence of his existence, instead of just giving us a book and relying on us to have faith in his existence? I see myself as a fairly scientific and logical person, one that doesn’t just believe in anything that I am told. Knowing that there would be a plethora of individuals with the same sort of thought process as I, wouldn’t God give us as big a chance as possible to choose what would be the correct path. Simply using a word-of-mouth evangelistic process and a book that quite frankly, is near impossible to decipher, and full of parables, seems a very strange way to go about telling his people about his presence. This being the case, it seems reasonable to say, that many people will not come to be Christians throughout their life, not because they are bad people, or people that have decided that they do not want to follow God’s way, but because they simply have not even gained the understanding of what Christianity actually is. God would know that I require this sort of proof of his existence, whereas other people may not. If he was merciful, would he not give it to me, instead of allowing me to go to Hell. If I knew that God existed, I would have absolutely no problem following his word, and dedicating my life to spreading the word. I know a ridiculous amount of people who say they believe in the Christian God, but they are not Christians. To me, these people are lying. Anyone in their right mind that believed in Christianity would fear going to Hell, and therefore follow Christianity. Anyway, I’m babbling. My real question is this. If God is all-powerful, and the Creator of all, how did Satan get this much power? Why would he allow it? If we live a perfectly normal life, therefore a sinful one, without making a decision either way, we will go to Hell. Satan does not require us to make any decisions. He does not require us to follow any rules. He does not require us to even think. He certainly doesn’t require us to simply have faith. By default, we are his. In my opinion, this would make the majority of people that have died throughout history, to now be in Hell. This also suggests to me that Satan is more powerful than even God. I could go on, but I better let someone read over this first. I know that you may not read this for a while, so if anyone else wants to discuss this, be my guest. The only other point I will make here, is that you have stated that all one needs to do to get into heaven, is
confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. I can do this easily, as I'm sure many have. But surely someone who does this, and then goes and kills 50 people, followed by asking for forgiveness again, will not go to heaven.

Aviendha.

PS : I do not mean to offend anyone, and I know that I make some bold statements myself. Please treat this as a discussion.

[WOLFGIR]

Aviendha, thats a very interesting post. Not very far from the one that made the Gnosticist take the change of belief as they did.
In somewhat simplified way. (from me not you).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic.htm

If one should be interested in Gnosticism..

(edit note: I should state that Gnosticism is very very a different belief, and alot of fantasy, occult and other terminology is from it. It is at the least a pretty interesting reading. Comair it more to the eastern religions and the early babylonian ones. Hellraiser fans will find some things that Barker used in his books etc.. don´t even know if this is a good post or very very off topic but well hehe)

[ 05-17-2002, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]