Satanism

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: [qb] quote: Originally posted by Neb: What things in particular did you find disturbing, Cerek?

The main thing was the belief that Wiccans have "sold out" because they only use positive magic. A Satanist should use good magic to benefit themselves, but should also use harmful magic to seek revenge on their enemies. (listed under the Religious Satanist).

This violates Christian values on several levels. First, Christians are admonished to have nothing whatsoever to do with witches, mediums, warlocks, diviners, or other persons who tap into supernatural forces to gain knowledge and/or power.

Secondly, Jesus instructs Christians to love thier enemy as they love themselves. (I admit that most Christians fall FAR short on this one, myself included).

There were other points, but that's to be expected. The two theologies are diametrically opposed, so there isn't going to be much common ground.

[/QUOTE]Again, I can't add much more to what Cerek has posted here, other than to say I agree pretty much with his points and to applaud his very nicely done posts all through this thread.

I don't often participate in the discussions on occult etc, because my religion says it's not something I should dabble in and thus my 'interest' is purely to know what is there and to learn how to recognize and avoid it in my own life. According to my faith, "magic" whether you term it 'white' or 'black' is still magic (occult) and thus forbidden to practicing Christians.

That's my view, but I recognize other people hold various views.

[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] Azzy, interesting thread but stop spreading your satanic Overlord demands and in msn, pal, or I'll sic Yorick on you for sure. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

[ 05-17-2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[the sauceman]

LOL...
Get 'im, Yorick!


this thread is very interesting, because it provides so many different views on the "occult" and even though I dont agree with that form of religion, it is a very interesting subject..

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I know someone who is a police consultant for ritual crimes. He is a satanist. The police department he works with no longer attributes satanism to the ritual crimes they investigate, they call them cult crimes. It is clear that like some peolpe call themselves muslims and blow themselves up in shopping malls, and while some people call themselves christians who gun down abortion doctors, some people call themselves satanists and sacrifice animals or even people. The point is, just because a person claims a philosophy, it does not mean that they will act in accordance of how the majority of practioners would. The correct term for these evils doers is extremist, fanantic, terrorist, or cultist. Satanist are none of the above.

That's a very good post, I agree with you completely! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Moni: I would hardly consider myself ignorant and short-sighted when I grew up in an area of the country where Satanism in its true formwas and still is practiced by old and young alike. I am hardly uninformed when my own mother's library (decades before you were even born mind you) contained volumes dedicated to the practices of Satanism and Witchcraft and I will accept an apology from you for your name-calling thank you. What I WOULD call ignorant and short-sighted is trying to sell a "religion" based on worshipping yourself, a rock, a tree, or any other thing that is not the creator. Its a load of hooey.

And what in the hell gives you the right to decide what true Satanism is?? Just because it doesnt fit into your snug little opinion of what Satanism should be then its wrong?? And since thats the way you think you will receive no apology from me.
Where do you get off telling people that if they dont worship what you think is right then they are fakes and all their religion is a bunch of crap. So your now including Wiccans and other Pagans even other various religions on top of that just because they dont worship a creator?
Get over yourself.

[Cloudbringer]

Azzie, I don't believe in any of those things either. I surely don't advocate burning anyone at the stake, mind you, but I'm not being an honest, faithful Christian if I say I'd happily participate or be involved in any rituals that they partake in, since as Cerek has mentioned, it's against my religious views. On the other hand, I have no problem with 'live and let live'.

I'm not quite sure I follow what you and Moni are disagreeing on, though. [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Maybe I didn't read everything closely enough.

Please don't sic Caleb on me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Neb]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Azzie, I don't believe in any of those things either. I surely don't advocate burning anyone at the stake, mind you, but I'm not being an honest, faithful Christian if I say I'd happily participate or be involved in any rituals that they partake in, since as Cerek has mentioned, it's against my religious views. On the other hand, I have no problem with 'live and let live'.

Cloudy, the problem isn't that Moni doesn't believe in them, it's that she calls them: "a load of hooey"

You have no problem with me not believing in God, do you? Well, wouldn't you have a problem with it if I said: "God? What a load of hooey! How could anyone ever believe anything that ridiculous?"

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Neb: Cloudy, the problem isn't that Moni doesn't believe in them, it's that she calls them: "a load of hooey" You have no problem with me not believing in God, do you? Well, wouldn't you have a problem with it if I said: "God? What a load of hooey! How could anyone ever believe anything that ridiculous?"[/QB]

Actually Neb, many folks HAVE said as much or worse to me and other Christians on this board and in rl. [img]smile.gif[/img] In fact a member of IW called me insane for believing in God several months ago. I was a bit miffed that he was so single-mindedly trying to insult me and my fellow believers, but it didn't diminish my faith at all nor make me afraid to discuss it. But I see what you are saying here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Thanks for the clarification.

[K T Ong]

I seem to have read somewhere that according to some Christian mystics (was one of them named Origen or something?) even Satan himself will ultimately be saved. There is therefore no such thing as eternal damnation. Elsewhere I also seem to have read that Satan is actually in a way doing God's will: the temptations he offers to humanity are really 'tests' to promote your inner growth. After all, another name for Satan is Lucifer, which means 'Lightbringer' -- he brings to light your weaknesses by putting temptations in your way, thereby helping you grow.

If all this is to be taken seriously, then it would seem to me that Satan is a good guy of sorts, after all! [img]smile.gif[/img] It's not unlike the Hindu god Shiva, who again appears to be evil at first sight but is actually good; he's a god of destruction, which at first seems evil -- the Ad&D rule books made him out to be evil! -- but he destroys in order to make room for new creation, and also because he treasures that which is indestructible. Only that which is lasting and indestructible has true value; if something is destructible at all, it is already valueless ipso facto.

I have no right to judge other people's religions becuase I don't even have my own religion to look up to. I don't like religion.

Our choice is actually never between religion and no religion, only between one religion and another. Atheism is a religion, too. And if you don't like religion, why do you post to this thread in the first place? Nobody's forcing you.

[ 05-16-2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

[Arnabas]

I actually thought about that, too. Satan isn't really evil, he's the "Loyal Opposition". [img]smile.gif[/img]
If we didn't have a choice between good and evil, neither one would have value.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by K T Ong: I seem to have read somewhere that according to some Christian mystics (was one of them named Origen or something?) even Satan himself will ultimately be saved. There is therefore no such thing as eternal damnation. Elsewhere I also seem to have read that Satan is actually in a way doing God's will: the temptations he offers to humanity are really 'tests' to promote your inner growth. After all, another name for Satan is Lucifer, which means 'Lightbringer' -- he brings to light your weaknesses by putting temptations in your way, thereby helping you grow. If all this is to be taken seriously, then it would seem to me that Satan is a good guy of sorts, after all! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry K.T., but your impression of Satan is completely off the mark. There is absolutely NO GOODNESS in him whatsoever.

He was called Lucifer BEFORE his fall from Heaven. Originally (before the Creation of Man), he was second in power only to God Himself. But Lucifer wasn't happy with 2nd best. He gathered angels that were loyal to him and they challenged God for His Power. He cast Lucifer out of Heaven and into the "depths of the earth". This was when God created Hell. It was designed solely for Lucifer and his fallen angels.

Satan KNOWS his fate will be eternal torture - there is no escaping it. He has already fought God and lost, so he now does the next best thing. Since He can't hurt God directly, he attacks Him indirectly by tempting His children (that would be us) away from worshipping God. Satan wants to lure as many souls as he can into Hell so that he won't have to suffer alone.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, they are filled with the Holy Spirit (the 3rd part of the Holy Trinity). It is the Holy Spirit that points out our weaknesses and flaws. He shows us how disappointing our sinful actions are to God, our Creator. We see our sin through God's eyes then, not ours, and that is what guides us to change our behavior and overcome our sinful nature.

It does NOT mean that we stops sinning. We don't. We still sin against God every single day. But God is a wonderfully loving Creator. He knows our sins before we even commit them. All He asks is that we confess our sins to Him and ask forgiveness. He then forgives us of our sins and wipes the slate clean. Our previous sin is forgotten.

Sorry, I've done my best not to be "preachy" in this thread. I'm still trying to do that. I'm not Posting this to change your opinion, I'm just pointing out the error of your information.

AFA Moni is concerned, I would say that she has every right to say what a "true Satanist" is because she has LIVED with "Gothic Satanists" most of her life. The fact that she overcame that experience to become a Christian is truly remarkable.

AzureWolf, I realize that you consider Moni's Post to be a case of "comparing apples to oranges". In your view, Gothic Satanists have nothing in common with Religious Satanists, other than the name. But she grew up in what sounds like a pretty harrowing scenario for "non-Gothic Satanists", so I think she's earned the right to speak her mind about that.

Keep in mind that MANY Christians would consider MY Posts here to be a "sell out" or an "apologetic" approach because I'm not condemning your pagan worship. I am walking a fine line between respecting your beliefs and compromising mine, but there are FAR TOO MANY Christians that JUST scream "Hellfire and Damnation" at non-believers and never try to SHOW the Love of Jesus Christ to others. They're too blind or intimidated to realize that thier approach will have NO POSITIVE EFFECT for either side.

I would love to see every single person accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, but that simply won't happen. That's a hard fact to accept, but it's reality. Christianity has not had an "un-blemished" past, and that gives many people sufficient reason to doubt its' validity.

The only way I can overcome that and try to gain respect for my chosen faith is if I show that same respect to those of different faiths. I do not agree with your chosen religion, but I still respect you as a person (as I do every member of this board).