Satanism

Originally posted by Aviendha: I am extremely interested to find out why there are so many Christians in this world. What is it that drives them to the point of actually believing in it. That is why I am having these discussions. I don't believe that Cerek is suddenly going to say "oh yeah, I guess your right", he is strong in his faith. Aviendha.

Not speaking as a christian, or non-christian...I think...opinion only here, I think there are so many christians, because of several factors, but it is a faith based on hope, a faith based on love and a faith based mostly on JUSTICE....Im not saing these traits are carried out by individuals, but in the christian faith, in the end God rights all wrongs, punishes those who are bad and rewards those who are good.......not eloquent of me, and not profound, but just on the surface of this, this is what I see when I examine Christianity...there are layers and layers more to it..but that is my surface perspective.......Yes I am Christian, mostly of Catholic denomination but I follow a path of my own that isnt really ment for any one but me.

Originally posted by Yorick: Science is not the only secular religion. Economics/Money is another. Stockbrokers are the priests, market speculators the prophets, financial consultants the pastors, financial journalists the biblical scholars, the stockmarket the bible, and the bottom line is God.

Now Yorick, don't go dissing the Stockbrokers, there are very many who are christian too, they are not all Jewish or some other religion and just because you work with money does not mean you worship it..I work with computers...I do not worship them.

Not all Christians see hell as a blace of fire and brimstone, According to my chatechism teachers in the 70's it was resolved in Vatacan II that hell was actually, eternal existance being barred from the presence of God.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Science is not the only secular religion. Economics/Money is another. Stockbrokers are the priests, market speculators the prophets, financial consultants the pastors, financial journalists the biblical scholars, the stockmarket the bible, and the bottom line is God.

Now Yorick, don't go dissing the Stockbrokers, there are very many who are christian too, they are not all Jewish or some other religion and just because you work with money does not mean you worship it..I work with computers...I do not worship them.[/QUOTE]And that is the key. What you worship. What is 'god' to you. Everyone has one. That which they give the most worth. Worth-ship -> worship. A christian stockbroker is using money, not worshipping money or the bottom line. Their priorities are different.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: Not all Christians see hell as a blace of fire and brimstone, According to my chatechism teachers in the 70's it was resolved in Vatacan II that hell was actually, eternal existance being barred from the presence of God.

I and a growing number of christians read hell as being nonexistence. Without God nothing can exist, as life itself is from God. The wages of sin are death. Jesus offers eternal life. Life = awareness. Revelation talks of those that reject God as experiencing "the second death". Death of the soul?

What is "eternal punishment"?

Punishment that lasts for eternity? (nonexistence) or punishment perpetuated eternally? (eternal pain and suffering)

I interpret the former. I and others find this a more correct biblical interpretation. It is also I believe more in keeping with the character of God. Strikes a chord with who I know God to be.

[Chewbacca]

Its refrshing to see the truth exposed about satanism and the lies of old church propaganda revealed. Altering another religions diety like they did with the Horned One and perverting it into an evil type was a brilliant way to scare the peasants into converting and to gather more land and money. Today it is ironic, that as a "religion" Satanism doesnt seek to convert anybody, you cant really count "black mass" publicity stunts. Its a very "come if ya will" society, although it does have its spokepeople. I think its certainly not for everyone, for it takes character to acknowledge ones own darkside and the potentcy of ones own lust, just as it takes wisdom to place these aspects of oneself into a healthy perspective and with self-authority.

I find it amazing that anyone who has read the original post, or some of the thoghts shared throguh the course of the thread would still hold prejudice against someone who calls themself a satanist in the decisivly "non-gothic" way.

You know they used to blame minoritys for all sorts of heinous crimes based out of ignorance and fear of the unknown and the different, dont fall into that trap again. Prejudice against Satanists in light of common knowldge is just plain sad. A satanist could be your doctor, lawyer, cop, military officer, stockbroker, me ect.

As a witch of sorts, I identify alot with Satanism. Some of the philosophy (personal responiblity, authority, and power); symbolism (phallace, ritual knife), and ritual practice( consecrating space and casting a circle) of satanism correlates with my practice of Witchcraft and invokations of the masculine side of creation or the God (depicted with horns in some archtypes) . My perspective differs from most Satanists because the Godess, or the femine side of creation gets equal coverage in my self-growth through rituals, prayers and practices. Some witches focus more on the goddess. Also I accept the unseen, or spiritual realm of life with the same weight as the physical or seen realm. I seek balance living as a spirit inside a body with a spiritual existance and destiny beyond my body. Satanists focus soley on the expirience of phyical existance, having no concern of an after-life or spiritual existance. It isnt practical to them to waste the little time we have as a mortal concerned about what happens if we are not. I agree with this to the extent that it balances with my spiritual belief that my consiouness and soul shall endure beyond this mortal coil.

Words can be lacking when it comes to personal first hand expiriences involving communion of spiritual nature. There is an old saying:
"Nothing will ever beat seeking enlightenment and truth for yourself, it may be not what you expect or exactly what you asked for."

[ 05-19-2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

Originally posted by MagiK: Not all Christians see hell as a blace of fire and brimstone, According to my chatechism teachers in the 70's it was resolved in Vatacan II that hell was actually, eternal existance being barred from the presence of God.

Magik, this sounds more reasonable to me. I can appreciate the Christian belief that when they die, since they have asked for God’s forgiveness, they will go to Heaven. I may not believe it to be true, but I can understand why Christians would want to believe that, and why a God, if there was one, would want it so.

It is Christian’s definition of Hell that I have often struggled to understand, and I am happier with your assessment. But if someone has not asked for forgiveness, it seems you are suggesting that they are barred from the presence of God. Where do they go then? Do they, as Yorrick has suggested, just cease to exist. But if the term Hell, can be defined as ceasing to exist and therefore being banned from the presence of God, then I must ask you where Satan is situated? God created Hell to hold Satan (from someone’s earlier definition), so this must mean that his existence was wiped out. Since Christian’s don’t believe that this is the case, can you explain where Satan fits in?

Anyway, there is something else that I would like to get other’s opinion on. To me, it is the crux of all these other questions I have asked. Do human beings have a soul? Obviously, as Christians, many of you will automatically say yes. Please tell me why you believe that we have a soul! But it is more the non-Christians in IW that I am really interested in. I know quite a few people that believe we have a soul, but they are not Christians. I would be very interested to hear what people have to say.
For this reason, I am going to start a new thread, as many people will be scared away by the controversial title of this one.

Aviendha.

Originally posted by Aviendha: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Not all Christians see hell as a blace of fire and brimstone, According to my chatechism teachers in the 70's it was resolved in Vatacan II that hell was actually, eternal existance being barred from the presence of God.

Magik, this sounds more reasonable to me. I can appreciate the Christian belief that when they die, since they have asked for God’s forgiveness, they will go to Heaven. I may not believe it to be true, but I can understand why Christians would want to believe that, and why a God, if there was one, would want it so.

It is Christian’s definition of Hell that I have often struggled to understand, and I am happier with your assessment. But if someone has not asked for forgiveness, it seems you are suggesting that they are barred from the presence of God. Where do they go then? Do they, as Yorrick has suggested, just cease to exist. But if the term Hell, can be defined as ceasing to exist and therefore being banned from the presence of God, then I must ask you where Satan is situated? God created Hell to hold Satan (from someone’s earlier definition), so this must mean that his existence was wiped out. Since Christian’s don’t believe that this is the case, can you explain where Satan fits in?

Anyway, there is something else that I would like to get other’s opinion on. To me, it is the crux of all these other questions I have asked. Do human beings have a soul? Obviously, as Christians, many of you will automatically say yes. Please tell me why you believe that we have a soul! But it is more the non-Christians in IW that I am really interested in. I know quite a few people that believe we have a soul, but they are not Christians. I would be very interested to hear what people have to say.
For this reason, I am going to start a new thread, as many people will be scared away by the controversial title of this one.

Aviendha.[/QUOTE]I thought a lot about that Avie, Seems to me..again this is just my own speculation. That if when you die, you leave the corporeal/physical world behind, those who have been saved exisit in the presence of God, those who have not, are damned to eternal existance barred from the presence of God...since there is no corporeal form, the notions of Where and even When are kind of pointless.

[johnny]

this looks like another never ending story.

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Science is not the only secular religion. Economics/Money is another. Stockbrokers are the priests, market speculators the prophets, financial consultants the pastors, financial journalists the biblical scholars, the stockmarket the bible, and the bottom line is God.

Now Yorick, don't go dissing the Stockbrokers, there are very many who are christian too, they are not all Jewish or some other religion and just because you work with money does not mean you worship it..I work with computers...I do not worship them.[/QUOTE]And that is the key. What you worship. What is 'god' to you. Everyone has one. That which they give the most worth. Worth-ship -> worship. A christian stockbroker is using money, not worshipping money or the bottom line. Their priorities are different.[/QUOTE]Not trying to offend here Yorick because I do applaude your devotion, but it does sound to me like you are setting yourself up as a judge of how people relate to God, and that is the one and only judgement we aren't supposed to make...what is in a mans heart is up to God to judge.